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Old 12-13-2019, 08:45 AM   #21
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: What is your campaign world

I've found you can get a long way using Legacy Edition TFT, RAW, with minimal magic items, to run old school D+D adventures, and you may not even need to adapt the content very much, but the players need to understand the differences between strategies that work in Melee-style duels vs. extended dungeon crawls.

Most importantly, heavily armored fighters are fine but not particularly dominant in arena combat, but at least a couple per party are basically required in a long, dangerous adventure because they are the only character type who can weather being the targets of dozens upon dozens of attack rolls without a high chance of getting rubbed out. It is not easy to design a well rounded character like this as a starting PC (which is fine; all heroes start as zeroes), but by the time you are moderately experienced it is pretty straightforward to have 8-9 points of armor protection and still maintain a valid attack and other skills.

You must have a master physicker in the party.

There is safety in numbers. This shouldn't come as a shock: The D+D adventures we are discussing were often undertaken by big parties of 6-10 PC's, often supported by henchmen. 8 TFT characters, all of whom have 5-10,000 XP, are a real wrecking crew.

TFT doesn't present well delineated niches for PC 'types' (a strength, I would say, as it means you can quickly make up dozens of distinct, interesting types on your own). But if your goal is to fight your way through dozens of encounters without a 1-2 week 're-boot', then your party should be both large and well balanced. You should have at least one 1-shot kill missile attack, at least a couple of high volume missile attacks (like, archers who deliver 2 arrows per turn), maybe 3 tanks with 8-10 points of armor protection, maybe 2 wizards with complementary spells, and enough talents spread through the party that you have the equivalent of a couple of thieves/mechanicians.

And the GM needs to understand that encounters where the party is strongly outnumbered can be fine, but they are a death sentence if you railroad them into having to fight everyone to the death. This is because the 'base line' humanoid monster (equivalent to a 1 HD critter in D+D) is competent in TFT.

If you liberally distribute magic items, it is a totally different situation. One experienced PC who is is well equipped with strong magical items can be astonishingly powerful. I don't really have PC's (or NPCs) in my campaign like this, but it is not hard to dream up 'white room' examples with 20+ points of protection, immunity to many forms of magic, a high probability of delivering punishing attacks, and various of those non-combat capabilities we often neglect in such discussions.

Last edited by larsdangly; 12-13-2019 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 12-14-2019, 09:29 AM   #22
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: What is your campaign world

Quote:
but by the time you are moderately experienced it is pretty straightforward to have 8-9 points of armor protection and still maintain a valid attack and other skills
Could you sketch an example? Not sure if you're anticipating fine and/or enchanted weapons and armour?
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Old 12-14-2019, 10:24 AM   #23
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: What is your campaign world

A pretty good trade-off of DX and skill investment for protection is fine plate + a small shield and the Shield Expertise talent, which gets you to 8 points of protection for a -4 DX adjustment. I don't consider fine plate a 'cheat', as it is a common and fairly affordable item from the standard equipment lists. Basically, anyone who wants to fight armored and has a decent base DX (say 14+) should be wearing it. Which is highly appropriate, as this is how people fought in war in the renaissance.

The main penalty to you is investing 10 points in IQ. But I think it is worth it, as there are other talents you'd also like to have eventually that call for IQ 10+, and 8 points of protection are actually quite a lot better than 6 in practice because it gets you close to bullet proof from normal hits from many common forms of attacks.

You can get this while keeping reasonable adjDX and an acceptable attack by the time you reach 34 total character points (so, just a 2 hundred XP). E.g., ST 10, DX 14 (10), IQ 10, fighting with a saber (2d-2, but of course a point or two higher if you can buy, steal or find a fine sword).

Given the investment in IQ you've already made, a somewhat more experienced character with higher ST should take a point of Toughness to get protection to 9 points (again, you are in a zone where marginal improvements count for a lot because they take things off the table). If you are traveling with a Master Physicker, you could walk away laughing from a fight where you take a 12 point hit, which is the most you will take from most attacks you face, and is typical of serious things like a maxed out lightning bolt or heavy crossbow hit. Such a character might be ST 12, DX 16 (12), IQ 10 and fight with a broadsword for 2d damage (again, if you think you might land a fine sword by this life stage, this could be as good as 2d+2 at adDX 13 without calling on magic gear).

These sorts of characters are valid if not world-shattering in 1-on-1 duels, but they are really excellent (I would say necessary) in extended dungeon crawls where it is sort of unavoidable that you are going to be subject to some pot-shots no matter how clever you are. In this sense, they are more useful than a character with tricksy weapon mastery, fencing or martial arts skills, who can avoid melee attacks by defending but are fresh meat to archers.

Last edited by larsdangly; 12-14-2019 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 12-14-2019, 11:04 PM   #24
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: What is your campaign world

I'd just point out that there are other ways to not die (even with many combats in a row without bed rest, and with no heretical healing powers) besides having 8-9 points of armor, that involve tactics.

Having enough people in a group (including NPC comrades) tends to be extremely helpful, though.
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Old 12-15-2019, 03:06 AM   #25
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: What is your campaign world

Of course clever play is always a good thing, but unless the terrain is in your favor or the GM helps you out, there really isn't a clever response to getting repeatedly shot at arrows (or otherwise being subject to repeated attack rolls) - it is a statistical certainty that you'll eventually get hit.
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Old 12-15-2019, 04:29 PM   #26
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: What is your campaign world

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Of course clever play is always a good thing, but unless the terrain is in your favor or the GM helps you out, there really isn't a clever response to getting repeatedly shot at arrows (or otherwise being subject to repeated attack rolls) - it is a statistical certainty that you'll eventually get hit.
Well, having played tons of TFT combat for many years, I'd tend to strongly disagree that there are no clever tactical responses that can prevent most injuries. (That's the core of TFT gameplay, it seems to me.) Just to name a handful:

* Use pre-contact tactics. If the terrain is wide open, if you're tactically aware and you1r GM is logical-minded enough, you should also be able to see a long ways off. You assess whether you or they have a missile advantage and either out-shoot them, or stay out of range and/or go where there is terrain.

* You can also use your own people as terrain if nothing else, dodge, etc.

* For non-missile users, you can maneuver such that you have local advantage and are liable to mess them up before they mess you up, concentrate attacks, generally get the battle to unfold in your favor, etc etc.

* Clever use of magic can go a long way.

I'm loath to go into more detail because learning effective tactics by discovering them in play is I think one of the main interesting things about TFT, and I would hate to reduce those to formulas that remove that experience for newer players. So I edited my above comments to muddy them a bit.

Tactics can work wonders. To me, that's what the core game is about - actually engaging dangerous situations in ways you can survive, and having some real risks of death. If you change the game or force situations so that the PCs are calculated to survive despite failing that tactical game so badly that they're frequently getting hit with axes etc., then you may be removing a large portion of that game.
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Old 12-15-2019, 06:34 PM   #27
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: What is your campaign world

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
You can get this while keeping reasonable adjDX and an acceptable attack by the time you reach 34 total character points (so, just a 2 hundred XP). E.g., ST 10, DX 14 (10), IQ 10, fighting with a saber (2d-2, but of course a point or two higher if you can buy, steal or find a fine sword).
You come very close to describing by oldest and most successful character, an adventurer who survived 17 years of near-continuous campaigning before my group retired.

He started out at ST 10 and DX 14 (12) in leather armor with a hammer and small shield, and I put all his first XP on DX to quickly upgrade him to chainmail and a large shield without compromising that good adjusted DX. So early on and for the bulk of his career he could always absorb at least 5 hits per attack from the front, which surely contributed to his remarkable longevity.

The goal for him, which he finally got to after several years, was fine plate and a fine saber. And sticking to 1-handed weapons meant he could still use a shield. He graduated to that and became the hardest PC to kill in any party he joined, even though his ST never got very high, and he never owned a magic item.

But also as skarg pointed out, tactics is everything. I rarely let this PC enter a room first, or let anyone attack him from behind. And by pouring the XP into his DX, he could fire a light crossbow every turn. He'd fire it at least once in every melee, often twice before dropping it to draw sword. So engagements started with an already wounded enemy, and him with all that armor. It tipped the scales in his favor almost every time.
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Last edited by Steve Plambeck; 12-15-2019 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 12-15-2019, 06:57 PM   #28
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: What is your campaign world

This is an experimental science. If you hypothesize that a moderately experienced, normal sized party with no magic items or substantial armor can get through Keep on the Borderlands or another similar old-school large dungeon, without taking wounds that require one or more of them episodically spend 1-2 weeks convalescing, then please find a GM and give it a try.
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Old 12-15-2019, 08:21 PM   #29
mstlaurent
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: What is your campaign world

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Originally Posted by Bestial Warlust View Post
I'd love to see your healing spell and other upgrades. I've been toying with the idea of a low powered healing spell.
Well, they have the Potion of Extra Healing, which heals 2 ST/dose, costs $300/dose, and is relatively hard to come by.

Night of Rest is IQ12, and costs 2 ST to cast. The target falls into a deep slumber and won't awaken naturally for eight hours. The target gets 1D ST healed during that time. If they are awakened early, they get 1 less ST healed for each hour of sleep they lose (i.e. if they are awakened 2 hours early they only get 1D-2 ST healed). But the target will always receive at least 1 ST healed.

The Healing spell is IQ13, and costs 2 ST to cast per 1 ST healed. It takes one minute to cast and requires the caster and the target to be quiet and still (so no casting in the middle of combat).
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Old 12-16-2019, 12:40 AM   #30
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: What is your campaign world

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Originally Posted by mstlaurent View Post
Night of Rest is IQ12, and costs 2 ST to cast. The target falls into a deep slumber and won't awaken naturally for eight hours. The target gets 1D ST healed during that time. If they are awakened early, they get 1 less ST healed for each hour of sleep they lose (i.e. if they are awakened 2 hours early they only get 1D-2 ST healed). But the target will always receive at least 1 ST healed.
I commend you for coming up with a great spell there. I've always been cold to the idea of introducing new healing methods in my world, but this is so well balanced I'd actually use it. The complications this could cause a traveling party, or one "on the run", would be a lot of fun to see the players deal with. Plus, it's a very simple spell with few rules to remember, and that's always a plus.
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