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Old 08-06-2018, 10:31 AM   #1
Halgar
 
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Default Orcs as player characters

The description of Orcs in In the Labyrinth says that they "get along well with men," but it describes them as surly, vicious, lying, sneaky, and rotten, which is not something that people would get along well with. It says that "an orc character (if he's a normal one) would get experience points for obnoxious words and deeds, and lose for noble actions." I hope that the new version of In the Labyrinth will describe Orcs as a race that's fun to play as a character and fun for the other players in the party if someone is playing one.
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:05 AM   #2
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Orcs as player characters

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Originally Posted by Halgar View Post
The description of Orcs in In the Labyrinth says that they "get along well with men," but it describes them as surly, vicious, lying, sneaky, and rotten, which is not something that people would get along well with. It says that "an orc character (if he's a normal one) would get experience points for obnoxious words and deeds, and lose for noble actions." I hope that the new version of In the Labyrinth will describe Orcs as a race that's fun to play as a character and fun for the other players in the party if someone is playing one.
That already sounds like fun! Actually it describes a fair subset of men so I see how they could get along with one another. I've played an Orc and had players who ran them and can say it's fun to play a surly, vicious, treacherous character. Sometimes people are reluctant to play humans like that, but playing an Orc, it's almost required and somewhat freeing. I would say it's usually a recipe for a short career though.
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:29 AM   #3
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Orcs as player characters

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That already sounds like fun! Actually it describes a fair subset of men so I see how they could get along with one another. I've played an Orc and had players who ran them and can say it's fun to play a surly, vicious, treacherous character. Sometimes people are reluctant to play humans like that, but playing an Orc, it's almost required and somewhat freeing. I would say it's usually a recipe for a short career though.
Hear, hear! Well said. And let us not forget the beautifully succinct description of an Orc found in 1st Edition Melee, page 19, under: Nonhuman Figures: "An ORC is just like a human figure - except evil."

I played an Orc after my cousin beat me in about our first 6 combats in a row on the first day he introduced me to Melee. I was so irritated, and wanted to destroy his figures so badly, so declared I was going to try an Orc against him, to which he responded: "But they're Evil..", and to which I responded: "Yeeeaaaaah!"

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 08-06-2018 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 08-06-2018, 12:01 PM   #4
JLV
 
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Default Re: Orcs as player characters

You know, one of the things that greatly appealed to me about TFT back in the day is that it not only allowed, but positively encouraged you to play something besides a Human, Elf, Dwarf, or Halfling! You could be an Orc, Goblin, Gargoyle, Gnome, LOTS of different things. Heck, you could even be a Dragon (at one extreme) or a Prootwaddle (at the other).

The only game really on the market at that time that encouraged such characters was Monsters, Monsters (and maybe T&T; I've never owned or played that one, so I can't say), so TFT was quite unusual in that regard. D&D really wasn't set up for it, though they tried to do something with the idea eventually. And it was FUN to play those kinds of characters from time to time. And yes, often their career was relatively short, but one time a group of us decided to play an Orc mercenary band who got hired to go and do various things, and while the campaign didn't last long (our GM went away) it was really amazingly fun.
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: Orcs as player characters

"Surly, vicious, lying, sneaky, and rotten" is probably the prevailing opinion about orcs among the majority of the humans on Cidri. But then the majority of humans on Cidri have probably not known an orc well, if at all. What orcs think about humans is likely to put humanity all in a basket of similarity and distrust as well. When you define someone as "other", you immediately make it difficult to avoid such categorizations.

(There are areas of Cidri with just about any population mix you could imagine, including some where humans are semi-mythical beings, unknown to the locals for generations. There are parts of the world where orcs are unknown, too. It's a big place.)

But even where orcs are known, the tendency is for people of all types to mostly settle among their own kind. There are probably places on Cidri -- many in fact -- where orcs, humans, elves, reptile men, dwarves, etc. live in harmony and cooperation together and there is little difference in the lifestyles of any of them. (Unlike Earth, where there are almost NO such places where everyone gets along and accepts each other, alas...)

In general, though, the likelihood is that if you are human, most of the people you know are human, orcs mostly interact with orcs, etc. Adventurers are not the average members of society, however, and an adventurer is more likely to have had interaction with many different people and their varying beliefs, societies, etc. Not always, of course. There are narrow-minded, insulated individuals and families who have managed to make a lot of noise with spells and swords without having much truck with those of different species. In most places, though, they'd have to work at it.

It is the nature of most humanoids to create arbitrary walls of difference between their tribe and others. Even races as old as the dwarves and elves haven't managed to overcome this entirely.

So if orcs are seen as sneaky and vicious, elves as haughty and annoyingly snobbish, dwarves as crude and easy to anger, etc. -- well, any such categorization of a large group is likely to be colored by prejudice at the very least and just flat out wrong as applied to individuals.

This sort of description is going to be common within the game world, but if a GM decides that "all _____ are _____", yeah, that's a real fantasy. The only thing you can be sure of about people who have different looks, views, and cultures and experiences is that they probably are not going to see everything the same way you do, and that you are probably going to have to make an effort if you want to understand their thoughts and actions.

Unlike our own world, the GM can directly shape the behaviors of everyone but the player characters. Even so, I have always preferred to play in worlds where you don't assume you know how someone feels or thinks just by looking at them.

Come to think of it, I prefer to LIVE in a world like that, too.
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:15 PM   #6
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Orcs as player characters

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Originally Posted by guymc View Post
...Adventurers are not the average members of society, however, and an adventurer is more likely to have had interaction with many different people and their varying beliefs, societies, etc. Not always, of course...
I see this as the difference between a Sailor of the 1920s who has sailed across the equator, experienced the wonders of the "mysterious orient", visited with the aboriginal people in the jungles of "deepest, darkest Africa", and has seen the weird and wonderful animals of the island continent of Australia; and those who never left the Kansas farm of their kindly aunt and uncle.

So true, "Adventures are not the average members of society."

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 08-06-2018 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 08-08-2018, 06:45 AM   #7
zot
 
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Default Re: Orcs as player characters

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Originally Posted by Halgar View Post
The description of Orcs in In the Labyrinth says that they "get along well with men," but it describes them as surly, vicious, lying, sneaky, and rotten, which is not something that people would get along well with. It says that "an orc character (if he's a normal one) would get experience points for obnoxious words and deeds, and lose for noble actions." I hope that the new version of In the Labyrinth will describe Orcs as a race that's fun to play as a character and fun for the other players in the party if someone is playing one.
Here's a fantastic video on "how to play an evil character" with advice that allows for trust between the PCs and also evil behavior on the part of the evil PC(s). It addresses ALL of the concerns I had about evil PCs (including mild PTSD I had from high school when I played in a group where one guy was a real jerk while playing a chaotic evil assassin in D&D).

He has a huge group of valuable RPG advice, including "Are you the D*ck in your Role playing game?", in which each member of our group found their behavior discussed in great detail (I highly recommend it -- none of us escaped that one). He has a whole series on GMing as well. Lest GMs think they get away free, here's "Are you the D*ck Game Master at your role playing table?".
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:09 AM   #8
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: Orcs as player characters

Orcs and men have similar stats, so a half-breed would also be 8/8/8/8.

Dwaves - Jim, that is a good question, and the reason is: (1) the hammer bonus is a combat thing and those are likeliest to be munchkined; (2) the weight bonus is a nod to Tolkien, who first imagined the Dwarven race as it was adapted for D&D and thence the gaming hobby. The weight bonus is to an extent compensated for by Dwarves' gold-lust and racial enmities - a bit of Advantages and Disadvantages sneaking in the back door.

Here is a related question not yet answered in my own mind. Elves get a running bonus. Should I (a) simply give all Elves the Runner talent, so of course they can't get it again, or (b) allow for Elf Runners with MA 14? (Either way, Elves' racial enmities and -3 DX squickitude at crawly things tend to balance the running bonus.)
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Old 08-08-2018, 10:08 AM   #9
Jim Kane
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Default Re: Orcs as player characters

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Dwaves - Jim, that is a good question, and the reason is: (1) the hammer bonus is a combat thing and those are likeliest to be munchkined;
Yes, I see what you are attempting to quell; however, I suppose a GM who is secure in his ability to govern things from getting out of hand, will simply put the +1 back in; and those who enjoy a munckin expression of the game, will also munckinize things anyway, regardless of how the rules might try to guide them in their play.

Thanks for sharing your thinking.

Is the *weight carried* advantage alone now enough of an incentive to cause a player to explore this race? I always felt it was specifically the +1 weapon bonus that *sold* the dwarf as PC; but that's my perception.

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(2) the weight bonus is a nod to Tolkien, who first imagined the Dwarven race as it was adapted for D&D and thence the gaming hobby.
Right, and I am sorry my post to Skarg crossed in timing to your response, as it might have saved you some typing regarding the origin of the troupe.

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Here is a related question not yet answered in my own mind. Elves get a running bonus. Should I (a) simply give all Elves the Runner talent, so of course they can't get it again, or (b) allow for Elf Runners with MA 14?
Here you are stuck dealing with the same general pickle as in the question of altering the Dwarves.

If you take Option A, by default this in turn says there can be no extra fast individual Elves - as they cannot reach MA 14 now by taking running - and, as a result, what was once a unique racial advantage, now becomes a unique racial limitation.

Is that a good thing, or a bad thing; I cannot say.

Whereas, if you take Option B - as it always was - you as Designer have to feel good that this is the reflection of Elves as you intend(ed) when you release the rules back into circulation.

And if you didn't feel *something* was a-miss, I presume you would not be posing the Elf question in the first place.

OR, do you split the difference, and change the innate Elf racial advantage to a natural MA of 10, but with a +1 for all movement (1/2 move and full move), netting a Elf-normal 6/11 MA, and still let the players who wants to, then additionally add the running talent, to take an enhanced Elf to an effective MA of 13; being a 10 + 2, plus an additional +1?

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(Either way, Elves' racial enmities and -3 DX squickitude at crawly things tend to balance the running bonus.)
Yes, I always personally loved this rule, as it really was a workable and effective disadvantage for the player and caused the player to consider carefully before selecting the Elf as PC.

And it now causes me to pose the following question along the same lines: Would you consider putting the +1 weapon damage for Dwarves back in - or give the race your new Weapon Specialty Talent, for that matter - IF they had to take an equally debilitating counter-balance disadvantage (like the Elf/Bug thing), such as making Dwarves extra prone to drowning in water (due to their disproportionate weight to size ratio) or some such reason like their extra mass, invokes a constant -1 MA or -2 MA to all movement (the opposite of an Elf MA bonus) for the race, or *both*?

Or, are you already pat on the Dwarf question at this time?

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 08-08-2018 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Correction for Clarity
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:24 PM   #10
JLV
 
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Default Re: Orcs as player characters

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Here is a related question not yet answered in my own mind. Elves get a running bonus. Should I (a) simply give all Elves the Runner talent, so of course they can't get it again, or (b) allow for Elf Runners with MA 14? (Either way, Elves' racial enmities and -3 DX squickitude at crawly things tend to balance the running bonus.)
I'm thinking that it should *not* be the Runner Talent. If Elves are genetically more nimble than Humans, an Elf should be able to train to become even more nimble, just as Humans can -- and thus retain their innate advantage...
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