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Old 01-20-2016, 02:36 PM   #1
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

If I've got an area effect attack with Cosmic: Irresistible Attack (such as Smite from Divine Favor), do things affected by the attack provide cover DR? In the case of Smite, can a lich hide behind a demon and use the demon as cover to reduce the damage the lich would take from the smite?

My players argued that cover DR should work*. I feel that an irresistible attack ignores DR, and that includes cover DR and obstacles. Their argument was that if an irresistible attack ignores cover DR, then overpenetration works very oddly.

Anyone have any opinions on the matter?

* They had just been hit by an area effect spell that destroyed inanimate objects, and they were highly motivated to find a ruling that prevented all their stuff from being destroyed.
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Old 01-20-2016, 02:39 PM   #2
Nereidalbel
 
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Default Re: Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

Hiding behind a demon works just fine, considering it's the demon's HP soaking the damage. Just use the HP/inch of objects for cover DR, and ignore their DR/inch value.
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Old 01-20-2016, 03:18 PM   #3
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Default Re: Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

In general, I'd say that anything damaged by the attack will soak up damage with its hit points, at least until blowthrough occurs, unless the attack was purchased as an area attack.

What area spell is this, though? If it's a custom spell, it does whatever the GM wants it to do.
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Old 01-20-2016, 04:26 PM   #4
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Default Re: Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

It's a custom spell, but I'm curious about the principle, because Smite is a published power that I've had multiple players use before.

I just find the argument that "this attack ignores the 2mm of steel plate that I'm wearing, but if I stood behind a random 2mm piece of steel plate that would protect me" really nonsensical. Ignores DR should ignore DR, whether its cover or not.
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Old 01-20-2016, 04:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

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Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
I just find the argument that "this attack ignores the 2mm of steel plate that I'm wearing, but if I stood behind a random 2mm piece of steel plate that would protect me" really nonsensical. Ignores DR should ignore DR, whether its cover or not.
Typically attacks that 'ignore' DR just pass through the armor as if it wasn't there, not damaging the armor. An attack that damages cover (or armor) is not 'ignoring' it.
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Typically attacks that 'ignore' DR just pass through the armor as if it wasn't there, not damaging the armor. An attack that damages cover (or armor) is not 'ignoring' it.
Plus this second example is not the same as the earlier one

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
In the case of Smite, can a lich hide behind a demon and use the demon as cover to reduce the damage the lich would take from the smite?
This is still a good question; should "ignores cover" be a part of "Ignores DR" or at least a second option? What about sacrificial Defenses? The latter is dealt with if Cosmic: No Defense Roll is also in effect and would prevent the lich from using an underling as an impromptu shield.

High fantasy, horror and ultra tech muddy the waters further as we get some form of living armor.
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Plus this second example is not the same as the earlier one
I'm not seeing the difference - can you walk me through what you're noticing?
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Old 01-20-2016, 08:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

Basically, this is a question about valid targets, and this kind of argument is also why I hate "Invulnerability" builds based around Insubstantial :) However, Insubstantial I think is a useful mental model here.

A regular attack shot at a regular person hiding behind an Insubstantial being goes right through the ghost and hits the target person. The ghost might be perturbed, but it won't be impacted and neither is the attack.

An Affects Insubstantial attack shot at Ghost A (who's hiding behind Ghost B) obviously risks hitting Ghost B. I think it's fairly clear that Ghost B interacts normally with max damage, blowthrough, and cover DR rules as they're being used in your particular game. Ghost A could have spill-over damage applied to them, but their (un)life must be better than if they'd had no cover at all.

Ignores DR (and Malediction, it's evil twin) can represent things like teleporting meaty chunks of the target out - armor, cover, etc certainly don't protect against that, but don't get damaged, either. It doesn't interact with the attack at all.

An attack that Ignores DR treats the DR very much as if it's insubstantial - it doesn't interact with it at all.

Do Corrosion Attacks that Ignore DR still destroy DR? I'm not sure they do. Corrosion Attacks who's Ignores DR enhancement is limited to only ignore metal DR or only ignore unholy DR would seem to be stopped normally by other DR sources - and would dissolve those sources as well.

A similar question can be asked by Burning Attacks ignoring DR and whether the armor is set on fire, or the guy inside it is.

I don't think you can have it all ways with just the one enhancement. If it ignores the first ghost, it necessarily ignores the second ghost (OR it's a Malediction and laughs at your line of sight issues). If it ignores the armor DR, it doesn't separately set the armor on fire and the wearer on fire. If it can't shoot insubstantial targets, it doesn't attack the Ghost's DR AND the DR and HP of the mortal guy behind it.

I think the necessary build to ignore DR AND cover is something like Malediction and AOE, and +5 skill to cover the targeting blind -5 penalty to fire behind cover. But then each item gets an individual resistance roll.
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Old 01-20-2016, 10:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

Can you post the build for the power? So we can see what the effects are.

For me, You can handle it 4 ways:

If you are using the optional rules for damage to shields then:

If the attack has emanation, then cover would take the damage before the players. If the cover is not destroyed then they would be safe. (the attack radiates from you)

If it does not have emanation Then the players would take the damage, and I would rule that the cover also took damage. (the attack engulfed the whole area, no hiding spot)

If you are not using the optional damage to shields rule:

Emanation = you take damage.

no emanation = you take damage.


The reason why I have this depend on the shield rule is because :)
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Old 01-20-2016, 11:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: Area effect attacks and cosmic (ignores DR)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I'm not seeing the difference - can you walk me through what you're noticing?
Good question.

So reminding myself of what I do understand and what I don't, it occurs to me I'm assuming a lot about Smite when I don't know its exact build, other than being an Innate Attack that has Cosmic: Irresistible Attack (+300%) and has been modified into an Area Effect. The former enhancement is nice and straight forward for an Innate Attack: you may still take an Active Defense but your DR does not apply. Except an Area Effect Enhanced Attack specifically states that the only valid Defense is a Retreating Dodge getting you out of the Area of effect or Dodge and Drop behind cover. I think. >.>

I drew the distinction otherwise because we had an example involving an inanimate object versus a living being for an attack called "Smite"; I mistakenly allowed assume aesthetics (a.k.a. fluff that might not even be fluff) color my perception. I am still not sure if the two are close enough examples to be used interchangeably and I am still uncertain how the Scatter rules work and whether a dodge and drop should work at all or not.

So the answer is "I don't know and in fact there may be no difference." >_<

Apologies.
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