Duplication + Shapeshifting

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by Plane

There needs to be a mechanical effect to an Ally having sub-20 Loyalty (which can apply to +50% minions) and failing a loyalty check is only "served his own interests" in easy/mortal/profitable/wise situations.

I deeply respect the care and intelligence that you put into your posts. But I must disagree with you about this. There does not need to be a mechanical effect to minions having sub-20 loyalty. The rules are intended to be descriptive, not prescriptive, and there are plenty of cases where it makes sense for an ally to functionally not have a loyalty rating and certainly never fail it. Now you can apply social engineering rules to those circumstances if you want to those circumstances, but that is a world state choice for the GM to make. Examples include Zombies, Magical Golems, vehicles modeled as ally's, etc. Hell, there may be entire games in which "entities created by magic are loyal to their creator unless mind controlled or the creator critically fails their creation." And that's Okay.

It's certainly an advantage to have an intelligent free-willed entity whose loyalty is guaranteed, compared to the standard assumption of an ally whose loyalty isn't guaranteed and requires you to treat them right, but, as far as I can tell, that's what the Minion modifier is for.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

There does not need to be a mechanical effect to minions having sub-20 loyalty.

So are you thinking it's only something that would kick into effect when the Minion enhancement is absent later on? Like for example if you make it a temporary enhancement ("Costs Fatigue Minion +45%") so you only got the "tolerates my abuse and can't leave me" benefit during brief moments?

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

The rules are intended to be descriptive, not prescriptive, and there are plenty of cases where it makes sense for an ally to functionally not have a loyalty rating and certainly never fail it.

You don't need to make loyalty checks if you're loyalty 20+ so that's the "never fail" situation.

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

Now you can apply social engineering rules to those circumstances if you want to those circumstances, but that is a world state choice for the GM to make.
Examples include Zombies, Magical Golems, vehicles modeled as ally's, etc. Hell, there may be entire games in which "entities created by magic are loyal to their creator unless mind controlled or the creator critically fails their creation."
And that's Okay.

Vehicles wouldn't deal with loyalty, SE mentions it doesn't apply to non-sentient things.

In the case of Slave Mentality, you can't resist influence skills, so even if your loyalty did drop because your master is lame and fails all his plots, it would be child's play to re-establish a "good" loyalty of 15 for them just by interacting again.

Zombies might be an exception though because they have Indomitable which makes influence skills unable to work on them, so you'd need to rely purely on reaction rolls.

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

It's certainly an advantage to have an intelligent free-willed entity whose loyalty is guaranteed, compared to the standard assumption of an ally whose loyalty isn't guaranteed and requires you to treat them right, but, as far as I can tell, that's what the Minion modifier is for.

One of the things I'm looking at is what Unwilling takes away from a Minion, since we do have an example of Unwilling+Minion in DF.

As far as I can tell, Unwilling does two things: lets you leave more readily than normal if endangered (which Minion counteracts, you can never leave) and sabotage your master more readily: reflected by the lower Loyalty assigned to it in SE.

If we don't at least keep the 2nd half then I'm not sure what is being traded away for that -50% discount.

If all Unwilling does to a minion is lower Loyalty it seems like something we might possibly give a more incremented value to though. Like if we established some sort of baseline loyalty for an ally (15 for example) then maybe it could be -5% per 1 below that, so you'd be at 5 loyalty for taking an ally at -50% ?

Reliable would be +5% per +1 though (benefits your reaction rolls) so it still seems like a slight point crock, so maybe it should be even more extreme, like we assume loyalty 20 and do -5% per 2 below, so -50% gives -20 for 0 loyalty?

[AlexanderHowl]

Minion plus Unwilling means that the Ally loyally obeys the letter of any command rather than the spirit of a command. For example, its master commands it to let no one through the treasury door but, when its master's enemies come walking up, it suggests an alterative route that will take them to its master's bedchamber instead of the treasury. While it obeys its masters commands without question, and can never disobey regardless of mistreatment, it is quite willing to betray its master for its freedom.

[Plane]

B153 "cannot claim points for a Sense of Duty toward Allies, Dependents, or Patrons. The point costs of these traits already take such a bond into account."

kinda wondering if you COULD take SOD toward an ally who is either a minion or unwilling because it seems like in those cases you don't take into account such a bond and don't feel a SOD toward those types of ally NPCs?

also feels like if allies have an unwritten SOD toward their PC (you don't actualyl lower their point value by including it?) then them lacking that SOD (which would normally increase point value of a char) is treated as if it lowered that value (as Unwilling does)

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Minion plus Unwilling means that the Ally loyally obeys the letter of any command rather than the spirit of a command.

Might they actually get the option to do whatever is convenient to them?

B150 mentions that a Reprogrammable w/o Slave Mentality gives you creative interpretation remaining in "your choice" of letter or spirit.

I'm actually wondering know if Reprogrammable is the key aspect of how "Minion" might function?

Sentient reprogrammables can have interests besides following programming (apparently IQ 0 characters can "follow programming" .. literally ALL they can do... though I'm not entirely sure how.. I guess with DX?) so maybe those competing interests are what could distract them from immediately completing the tasks set to them?

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

For example, its master commands it to let no one through the treasury door but, when its master's enemies come walking up, it suggests an alterative route that will take them to its master's bedchamber instead of the treasury.

Ah: but they would only be going through the "door" if they passed through the door's keyhole, merely opening the door for them lets them through the open doorWAY :)

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

While it obeys its masters commands without question, and can never disobey regardless of mistreatment, it is quite willing to betray its master for its freedom.

The "spirit" of command being ignorable for non-slave reprogrammables gives a lot of flexibility for masters who rely too much on spirit and not letter.

Like "take him to the dungeon" is essentially meaningless unless you say "within the hour" or "as soon as you possibly can". The demon might just say "sure" (internally "I plan to take him to the dungeon in a couple years after his group overthrows my master, but for now I'll let him go")

Of course the freedom to follow letter instead of spirit also means a reprogrammable doesn't have to be super-literal, they can go beyond letter (or even ignore the letter) if in good faith they think they're doing what you intend...

Like for example if you order your incubus to "knock her socks off" he is free to just seduce her like he thinks you mean and not obligated to literally use blunt impacts to remove her shoes and what lies underneath.

You'd probably also need to order them to report back to you immediately if it's not possible to do certain stuff. Like if you say "steal the crown off the king's head" but the king took it off when he went to sleep and it's on the nightsatand, the reprogrammable would not be obligated to come back and say "I failed" or "I could have succeeded, the crown was just 1ft to the right" unless you order that information and ask tailored questions...

The more I think of it, Reprogrammable seems like the best representation of what 'Minion' could mean, even though Allies doesn't mention it.

We know from B151 that programming will override any sense of duty, so it's very high-ranking in what steers characters. So maybe Minion should be forbidden for non-reprogrammable characters as allies?

Maybe it's some kind of surcharge you pay for what otherwise lowers the point total of that ally and makes them cheaper: a reprogrammable ally is a bad thing if someone else is programming them, but a good thing if you are the programmer.

I would think perhaps "Sense of Duty: PC" could be assumed to be built into allies except in the case of Unwilling ones.

B68 uses Reprogrammable as representing what Mind Control does, so I do wonder if approaching RP as representing Minion +50% could be too extreme. It's actually BETTER in some respect since it doesn't require concentrates to maintain and they don't get a roll to break free if compelled to act against principles!

B78 distinguishes Duty or Involuntary Duty, so maybe that's what standard ally / involuntary ally could be expected to have baked in?

B134 just doesn't have that serious a conseqence though: "If you try to avoid your Duty, your GM is within his rights to penalize you for bad roleplaying." sure, but if that's just not getting a bonus CP for a session, it might be well worth to just ignore the duty you have to an employer and break free of them, right?

I guess maybe "penalize you" is pretty open-ended, so many many bad things of extreme consequence COULD be inflicted by GMs for those who ignore the requirements of the Duty social trait.

[RedMattis]

I guess this turned into a discussion about the Ally trait.

Ally by default assumes a person who is very loyal to you and is available to help about as often as the Frequency of Appearance implies. The exact specifics is for the player and GM to discuss. Perhaps your ally is a close friend, perhaps they "proud savage" who have sworn their life to you, or perhaps just a reliable soldier who you can command by rank, etc.

Generally the assumption is that you can't abuse them to any extent; they still have opinions and goals of their own. If they really will (attempt) to follow any order you give them then they have the Minion enhancement.

The Ally is also always considered to be "on your side", at least unless you scare them off (perhaps by violating their morals). If they are not on your side (black-mailed, demon bound by magic, a malevolent genie forced to serve the possessor of their lamp, etc.) then the Unwilling enhancement is relevant.

Something like "how hard is it for my unwilling ally to get free/betray me", or "just how loyal is my non-minion ally?" is generally left open to discussion. If the GM wants to make it more granular they could interpolate between the -50% to +50% values of course.

Your robot or golem Minion might be highly intelligent, but without ambitions beyond best serving its master. (+50%). A warrior sworn to you by blood oath might remain loyal no matter what you do, but might refuse to personally partake certain acts (+25%). Your brother in arms has got your back as long as you have his, and you uphold your common values (+0%). Your captured Genie might intentionally misinterpret commands, toy with you in critical situations, or otherwise act against your interests for its own amusement (-25%). Your bound demon is forced to follow your commands, but will attempt to misinterpret, undermine, and try get free from you at almost every turn (-50%).

In general think loyalty rolls and such are only relevant for allies without Minion or Unwilling.

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

I guess this turned into a discussion about the Ally trait.

Ally by default assumes a person who is very loyal to you and is available to help about as often as the Frequency of Appearance implies. The exact specifics is for the player and GM to discuss. Perhaps your ally is a close friend, perhaps they "proud savage" who have sworn their life to you, or perhaps just a reliable soldier who you can command by rank, etc.

Generally the assumption is that you can't abuse them to any extent; they still have opinions and goals of their own. If they really will (attempt) to follow any order you give them then they have the Minion enhancement.

The Ally is also always considered to be "on your side", at least unless you scare them off (perhaps by violating their morals). If they are not on your side (black-mailed, demon bound by magic, a malevolent genie forced to serve the possessor of their lamp, etc.) then the Unwilling enhancement is relevant.

Something like "how hard is it for my unwilling ally to get free/betray me", or "just how loyal is my non-minion ally?" is generally left open to discussion. If the GM wants to make it more granular they could interpolate between the -50% to +50% values of course.

Your robot or golem Minion might be highly intelligent, but without ambitions beyond best serving its master. (+50%). A warrior sworn to you by blood oath might remain loyal no matter what you do, but might refuse to personally partake certain acts (+25%). Your brother in arms has got your back as long as you have his, and you uphold your common values (+0%). Your captured Genie might intentionally misinterpret commands, toy with you in critical situations, or otherwise act against your interests for its own amusement (-25%). Your bound demon is forced to follow your commands, but will attempt to misinterpret, undermine, and try get free from you at almost every turn (-50%).

In general think loyalty rolls and such are only relevant for allies without Minion or Unwilling.

I'm inclined to agree with your interpretation and analysis. I like the interpolation scale and leaving up the details to the GM. Leaves the rules descriptive.

Also, did you get your OP question answered satisfactorily?

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless

Also, did you get your OP question answered satisfactorily?

Well, it was mostly 'how do we state shape-shifting which is linked to a dupe?' And Shape-shifting seems like a better solution to me than "Ally", since I assume Dupes (especially if you have mind-link telesend) can all be fully controlled by the player, while allies rarely are.

I think I lean towards just making it an base-cost enhancement on Duplication roughly based on shape-shifting.

Perhaps something like this:

+0 points ...for practically identical forms.
+1 points ...if the forms merely look slightly different. Two British men of similar appearance.
+5 points. ...if your duplicate forms look fairly different but has very similar stats. Male & Female form ala. Hermaphromorph.
+10 points. ...if your duplicate forms are different, but not in a major way. F.ex. An Human, Elf and Dwarf.
+15 points ...if your duplicate forms are very different but within certain rules. F.ex. a Human, Giant Troll, Siren, and Hamster. (all biological beings)
+20 points ...if your duplicate forms are wildly different. F.ex. A Human, Robot, Walking Skeleton, incorporeal spirit and swarm of nanomachines.

Add the cost for each additional form based on how different it is from the most similar form. So Ghost+Zombie+Skeleton+Skeleton would be (+20 Ghost-> Zombie. +5 Zombie -> Skeleton. +0 Skeleton to Skeleton).

(I really feel like shape-shifting could do with some similar "level" scaling. Shape shifting from a human to an elf is nowhere near as useful as turning into a swarm of insects monstrous 'combat-form', or even just medium sized bird)

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Well, it was mostly 'how do we state shape-shifting which is linked to a dupe?' And Shape-shifting seems like a better solution to me than "Ally", since I assume Dupes (especially if you have mind-link telesend) can all be fully controlled by the player, while allies rarely are.

I think I lean towards just making it an base-cost enhancement on Duplication roughly based on shape-shifting.

Perhaps something like this:

+0 points ...for practically identical forms.
+1 points ...if the forms merely look slightly different. Two British men of similar appearance.
+5 points. ...if your duplicate forms look fairly different but has very similar stats. Male & Female form ala. Hermaphromorph.
+10 points. ...if your duplicate forms are different, but not in a major way. F.ex. An Human, Elf and Dwarf.
+15 points ...if your duplicate forms are very different but within certain rules. F.ex. a Human, Giant Troll, Siren, and Hamster. (all biological beings)
+20 points ...if your duplicate forms are wildly different. F.ex. A Human, Robot, Walking Skeleton, incorporeal spirit and swarm of nanomachines.

Add the cost for each additional form based on how different it is from the most similar form. So Ghost+Zombie+Skeleton+Skeleton would be (+20 Ghost-> Zombie. +5 Zombie -> Skeleton. +0 Skeleton to Skeleton).

(I really feel like shape-shifting could do with some similar "level" scaling. Shape shifting from a human to an elf is nowhere near as useful as turning into a swarm of insects monstrous 'combat-form', or even just medium sized bird)

two points,

first is that I was thinking of how I might do changes to the entity as a modifier to duplication because almost every instance I could think of for Duplication (Construct) implied that the dupes might have slightly (or dramatically) varying traits from the original. I conceptualized this as the duplicates having a meta-trait that the original did not (whether that was a full racial template, or simply a "body of (element)" type trait).
I considered simply applying 90% of the positive point cost difference to the final cost of the Duplication, like how alternate forms do it. You could probably apply the full cost of a negative cp metatrait as a limiter at -1% per -1 cp along the lines of temporary modifiers.

second, as per the "substantially different" clause, I've actually seen alternate forms look far more like point crocks when used for forms that are not substantially different, especially when it's being used for metatraits like the Body Of templates or when it's temporarily turning into a type of monster that has a host of disads (e.g. alternate form (vampire) for a 150 cp vampire template which includes nearly -200 cp of disads that you can more or less get around most of the time by having vampire be an alternate form. And while alternate form (vampire) may seem silly, using alternate form as a basis for spirit channeling to the same effect is something I've very much seen. Also evil mystics in MH are given the option to have alternate form (a monster of the GMs choice which could be vampire) and whether that's a point crock or not is irrelevant because it's an NPC, but it's still an example of alternate form (vampire) being specifically used in a supplement.)

[AlexanderHowl]

Alternate Form (Vampire) is one of the possible abilities under the Death Talent in Powers. Since vampire templates tend to cost a minimum of 150 CP, this is a substantial savings. Of course, it would only cost a vampire 15 CP to have Alternate Form (Superior Human) with a Superior Human template worth 150 CP.

[oneofmanynameless]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Alternate Form (Vampire) is one of the possible abilities under the Death Talent in Powers. Since vampire templates tend to cost a minimum of 150 CP, this is a substantial savings. Of course, it would only cost a vampire 15 CP to have Alternate Form (Superior Human) with a Superior Human template worth 150 CP.

Which is perhaps one of the most egregious ways that the mechanics of Alternate Form can be abused.