Space opera fleet makeup

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Fighters may have greater acceleration (and potentially greater maximum velocity in the case of certain reactionless drives). For example, in a setting where fighters have an acceleration of 4g and a maximum delta-v of 360 mps because they commonly have four reactionless drives while carriers have an acceleration of 1g and a maximum delta-v of 180 mps because they commonly have one reactionless drive, there is a use for fighter spacecraft.

And that's setting assumptions. I'm not denying that a short duration craft would be more capable (within it's more limited mission radius) than a long duration craft. But it is not a given that the difference would be anywhere near as great as that seen in most "dogfight in space" films and games.

[AlexanderHowl]

Dogfights in space require too much superscience for my tastes. I see fighters as force multipliers, as an SM+15 with ten hanger bays carrying 1,000 SM+6 fighters each are capable of firing 120,000 20cm 100 kiloton nuclear missiles per turn. Of course, they will run out of missiles, but they will be capable of swinging above their weight class until they do. By that time, any opposing force should be a rapidly expanding cloud of incandescent gas.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Dogfights in space require too much superscience for my tastes. I see fighters as force multipliers, as an SM+15 with ten hanger bays carrying 1,000 SM+6 fighters each are capable of firing 120,000 20cm 100 kiloton nuclear missiles per turn. Of course, they will run out of missiles, but they will be capable of swinging above their weight class until they do. By that time, any opposing force should be a rapidly expanding cloud of incandescent gas.

That's a very different paradigm than "fighter" and "carrier" usually suggests. In that case, it's almost like a battleship with disconnected turrets.

[AlexanderHowl]

Well, space fighters are going to have different functions than aerospace fighters. Aerospace fighters can be dogfighters, but I do not think that we have had dogfighting since the Vietnam War. Space fighters probably do not have enough acceleration or gravity compensation to be dogfighters, but they each carry enough nuclear missiles to destroy a capital ship (or enough conventional missiles to cripple a capital ship).

Imagine two carriers moving at each other at 180 mps with a separation of 0.1 AU. They launch their fighters over the course of two hours. Since the fighters can accelerate to 360 mps, they will accelerate for one hour until they engage the first wave of enemy fighters. At that point, each fighter will attempt to engage the enemy fighters with their missiles.

Since the fighters can only have 84 missiles, each fighter must decide whether to engage enemy fighters or to save their missiles for capital ships. In the former case, missiles spent to kill enemy fighters may result in dozens of missiles that will not have a chance to kill their capital ships. In the former case, missiles saved for capital ships may win the battle. Fifty percent of the fighters will probably be tasked with destroying fighters while fifty percent of them will probably be tasked with killing capital ships.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Well, space fighters are going to have different functions than aerospace fighters. Aerospace fighters can be dogfighters, but I do not think that we have had dogfighting since the Vietnam War.

No, unless you're defining "dogfighting" as something other than "aircraft maneuvering against each other to gain advantageous postion for weapons use" there has been dogfighting in every air-to-air conflict since Vietnam.

It actually wasn't until Desert Storm that we really saw aircraft destroyed without maneuvering. The score then was 26 aircraft shot down by radar missiles, 6 by Sidewinders and 1 or maybe 2 helicopters gunned by A-10s. Though the advanced Sidewinders used then have a heads-on capability I know of no cases when it was used.

If you want to have a start date for a new paradigm of air-to-air combat Desert Storm could mark a beginning but not a complete changeover.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by RyanW

That's a very different paradigm than "fighter" and "carrier" usually suggests. In that case, it's almost like a battleship with disconnected turrets.

Not really. That's what WWII air strikes were like compared to being shelled by a battleship.

Note that Alexander Howl's scenario requires that missiles be able to saturate point defences, and that nuclear dampers not be a thing. Spaceships assumes Nuclear Dampers are TL11^, but UT gives projectors at TL10^ that could be used to catch missiles point defence missed or, as the damage numbers for nukes suggest that even proximity attacks (which a TL10 SM-15 ship with 2 armour systems per section can survive unharmed anyway) will detonate inside the bubble of a TL10^ projector of good size and range that's simply aimed at the ship it's mounted on.

So, if nuclear dampers exist, nukes are not a problem.

OTOH, unless the example with ships closing at 180 mps each involves pseudo-velocity, conventional missiles will be hitting harder than nukes anyway, and with proximity attacks will be hitting many times more often.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Since the fighters can only have 84 missiles, each fighter must decide whether to engage enemy fighters or to save their missiles for capital ships. In the former case, missiles spent to kill enemy fighters may result in dozens of missiles that will not have a chance to kill their capital ships. In the former case, missiles saved for capital ships may win the battle. Fifty percent of the fighters will probably be tasked with destroying fighters while fifty percent of them will probably be tasked with killing capital ships.

Except that if 'fighter' waves are so effective at killing big ships, nobody will field really big ships, because it puts too many dollars in one basket, and that includes carriers. Instead of one SM+15 carrier, they'll field hundreds of SM+12 to SM+13 carriers, or even smaller. A fleet of ten SM+13 carriers can carry as many fighters as a single SM+15 carrier, and can launch them twice as fast. They can also be split up should you not need 4000 fighters in one place, but do need a few hundred here and a few hundred there.

If all ships are eggs, and even 100-ton fighters carry sledgehammers, no ship will be bigger than it absolutely has to be, and many small ships will be a better investment than few very large ones.

[Phantasm]

Okay, maybe I should explain the craft I have so far. I operate on a TL11^ mostly safetech path, with force shields and pseudovelocity reactionless thrusters (though I haven't figured out the max speeds yet); most of the small craft are incapable of hyperspace travel. I'm sorry, AlexanderHowl, but I do expect dogfighting to happen in the setting. The larger the ship is, commonly the less room percentage-wise is dedicated to the thrusters.

Most of the military craft have hardened armor and hardened force screens.

Small craft:
- a 10-ton (SM +4) fighter capable of 10G, not normally used by the big nations, but still fielded by pirates, insurrectionists, mercenaries, and colony defense forces. Typically armed with two 3MJ beam weapons and two 16cm launchers, 5 missiles per launcher. (The weapon systems take up 2 forward modules each; engine takes 5 rear hull modules.)

- a 30-ton (SM +5) fighter capable of 6G, currently relegated to colony world defense forces and mercenaries. Typically armed with three 3MJ beam weapons and two 16cm launchers, 5 missiles per launcher. (The engine takes 3 rear hull modules.)

- a 30-ton (SM +5) attack fighter capable of 4G, also relegated to colony world defense forces and mercenaries, though also found in pirate forces. Armed with three 3MJ beam weapons and three 16cm launchers forward, 5 missiles per launcher, and two 3MJ EM disruptors on a middle turret. (The engine takes 2 rear hull modules.)

- a 30-ton (SM +5) aerospace superiority fighter capable of 8G, currently fielded by the the Big Three human factions. Armed with two improved rapid-fire 1MJ beam weapons and two 20cm missile launchers, 7 missiles per launcher. (The weapon systems take up 2 forward modules each; engine takes 4 rear hull modules.)

- a 30-ton (SM +5) multi-role aerospace fighter capable of 6G, also fielded by the Big Three human factions. Armed with a single 10MJ beam weapon, a single 20cm missile launcher with 7 missiles, and six 16cm missile launchers with 5 missiles each. (The engine takes 3 rear hull modules.)

- a 30-ton (SM +5) interceptor capable of 10G, fielded by the Big Three human factions. Armed with a single 10MJ beam weapon, a single 25mm electromag gun, and nine 16cm missile launchers with 5 missiles each. (The engine takes 5 rear hull modules.)

- a 100-ton (SM +6) aerospace fighter capable of 8G, designed by an alien race as their multi-role fighter but adapted by the Big Three human factions as a two-man attack fighter. Armed with three 10MJ beam weapons, a single 24cm missile launcher with 7 missiles, three 20cm missile launchers with 5 missiles each, and ten 16cm missile launchers with 5 missiles each. (The engine takes 4 rear hull modules.)

- a 300-ton (SM +7) bomber capable of 2G, designed for assaults against larger craft and orbital stations, fielded by the Big Three human factions. Armed with a single 32cm spinal-mount missile launcher with 15 25KT nuclear warheads, three 3MJ beam weapons, seven 20cm missile launchers with 7 shots each, and three 300KJ very rapid fire beam weapon turrets aft for its protection. (The engine takes 1 rear hull module.)

- a 100-ton (SM +6) aerospace personnel shuttle for transporting around 50 people, capable of 3G, fielded by just about everyone. (The engine takes 3 rear hull modules, using Standard rather than Hot Reactionless thrusters, though.)

- a 100-ton (SM +6) assault shuttle for boarding operations capable of 6G, fielded by the space marines of the Big Three human factions, though pirates and colonial defense forces have their share. Possesses full ECM, a stealth hull, and dynamic chameleon plating (though its heat signature may give it away). (The engine takes 3 rear hull modules.)

- a 1,000-ton (SM +8) dropship for transporting heavy materiel to a planetary surface, capable of 4G, and fielded by just about everyone. It has ECM to protect it during fall, but generally relies on a fighter escort. (The engine takes 2 rear hull modules.)

- a 1,000-ton (SM +8) SWACS craft capable of 2G but possessing a wide array of sensors, fielded by the Big Three human factions. Used for long-range scouting, search-and-rescue, and battlefield control, but requires a fighter escort for protection. (The engine takes 1 rear hull module.)

- a 1,000-ton (SM +8) "racker" for rapid deployment and battlefield re-arming of fighters, capable of 6G, fielded by the Big Three human factions, though older models have been sold to or acquired by smaller forces. It has external clamps for six small (SM +4 to +5) or three medium (SM +6) fighters at a time. (The engine takes 3 rear hull modules.)

- a 300-ton (SM +7) patrol boat, capable of 4G, fielded by the Big Three human factions, with older models filtering down to smaller forces. Typically armed with a single forward-mounted 30MJ beam weapon, 2 forward-mounted 24cm launchers with 10 missiles each, and a central turret with three 3MJ rapid-fire beam weapons. (The engine takes 2 rear hull modules.)



Larger craft to follow next post.

[AlexanderHowl]

Pseudovelocity drives limit the effectiveness of missiles, so you end up favoring beam weapons over kinetic weapons, as missiles have to depend on real velocity for inertia (which also favors nuclear missiles). Even with 10g acceleration, you really cannot have dogfights at velocities over 0.3 mps because it takes too long to change direction, so you would need 100g for every 3 mps of anticipated velocity to really have dogfights. Since you have superscience, just have gravity compensatory with a 99% effectiveness, so pilots risk blacking out when they do a 1000g turn.

[Phantasm]

Larger military craft
Unless specified otherwise, these craft have a single rear hull module dedicated to the engine. The smaller models use hot reactionless, while the larger models use standard reactionless with a waste heat signature. The largest, which are still under development, and older models use a rotary reactionless engine.

- a 3,000 ton (SM +9) point-defense corvette, capable of 2G, fielded by just about everyone, though rare in pirate hands. Deployed in squadrons of 2-4 ships, intended for in-system patrol and escort duties, bristling with weapons designed to target smaller craft. Typically armed with three 32cm launchers with 20 missiles each, ten 100MJ beam weapon turrets, and thirty 3MJ rapid-fire beam weapon turrets forward; and ten 30MJ and thirty 30MJ beam weapon turrets in the mid-section.

- a 10,000-ton (SM +10) escort frigate, capable of 2G, fielded by just about everyone, though rare in pirate hands. Typically armed with ten 40cm launchers with 20 missiles each and thirty very rapid fire 1MJ beam weapon turrets forward; and twenty 10MJ rapid-fire beam weapon turrets, fifty 1MJ very rapid fire beam weapon turrets, and ten 100MJ tractor beam turrets in the mid-section.

- a 10,000-ton (SM +10) escort carrier, capable of 2G, fielded by just about everyone, though rare in pirate hands, and relegated to an escort and system patrol role. Capable of carrying thirty 30-ton fighters, but more commonly carrying over a hundred 10-ton fighters when used by smaller polities. Typically armed only with thirty 1MJ beam weapon turrets in the mid-section for point-defense.

- a 30,000-ton (SM +11) aerospace destroyer, capable of 1G, currently fielded by the Big Three human factions. Armed with a single 10GJ beam weapon turret, three 3GJ beam weapon turrets, and three 48cm launchers with 50 missiles each forward, capable of carrying 100KT nuclear warheads; and three 300MJ beam weapon turrets, ten 10MJ very rapid fire beam weapon turrets, and ten 40cm launchers in the mid-section, capable of carrying 25KT nuclear warheads.

- a 100,000-ton (SM +12) aerospace marine transport carrier, capable of 2G, fielded by the Big Three human factions in a manner similar to modern LHA amphibious assault craft. Armed with thirty 10MJ very rapid fire beam weapons for point-defense, but carrying over 18,000 tons of smaller craft; typical loadout is ten dropships, thirty assault shuttles, ten personnel shuttles, a hundred ground vehicles, and two squadrons of 30-ton fighters for escort, leaving room for 550-600 tons of additional craft when necessary; has enough bunks for a full regiment of soldiers.

- a 100,000-ton (SM +12) strike carrier, capable of 1G, fielded by the Big Three human factions, occasionally in a marine transport role, though lacking in aerospace capability. It's designed to carry a full wing (at least 4 squadrons) of fighters and other small craft (notes say 144 pilots). Armed with three 56cm launchers with 70 missiles each and ten 300MJ beam weapon turrets forward; and three 10GJ bean weapon turrets, ten 3GJ beam weapon turrets, fifty 10MJ very rapid fire beam weapon turrets, and ten 1GJ tractor beam turrets in the mid-section.

- a 300,000-ton (SM +13) gun cruiser, capable of 1G, fielded by the Big Three human factions. Armed with three 64cm launchers with 100 missiles each, three 30GJ beam weapon turrets, ten 10GJ beam weapon turrets, and thirty 300MJ beam weapon turrets forward; and three 30GJ beam weapon turrets, ten 10GJ beam weapon turrets, and thirty 30MJ very rapid fire beam weapon turrets in the mid-section.

- a 300,000-ton (SM +13) missile cruiser, capable of 1G, fielded by the Big Three human factions. Armed with three 64cm launchers with 100 missiles each capable of carrying 100KT antimatter warheads, twenty 56cm launchers with 70 missiles each capable of carrying 25KT antimatter warheads, and thirty 300MJ rapid-fire beam weapon turrets forward; and three 64cm launchers with 100 missiles each capable of carrying 100KT antimatter warheads, ten 56cm launchers with 70 missiles each capable of carrying 25KT antimatter warheads, and thirty 300MJ rapid-fire beam weapon turrets in the mid-section.

- a 1,000,000-ton (SM +14) battlecruiser, capable of 0.5G, fielded by the Big Three human factions. More numerous than the other SM +14 craft because it's an older design that has been retrofitted to newer technology, commonly seen as admirals' flagships in the Self-Determination League and United Earth forces. Not as heavily armored as the later battleship. Armed with a single 300GJ beam weapon, three 100GJ beam weapon, and three 80cm launchers with 150 missiles each capable of carrying 10MT antimatter warheads; and two 100GJ beam weapon turrets, one 80cm launcher turret with 150 missiles capable of carrying 10MT antimatter warheads, twelve 3GJ rapid-fire beam weapon turrets, eight 64cm launcher turrets with 150 missiles each, and thirty 100MJ beam weapon turrets in the mid-section.

- a 1,000,000 (SM +14) battleship, ten in existence, fielded by the Colonial Defense Force and United Earth as flagships for their system admirals. Stats pending, but probably only doing 0.5G and better armored than the battlecruiser; armed to the teeth.

- a 1,000,000 (SM +14) heavy carrier, twelve in existence, fielded by the Colonial Defense Force and United Earth as flagships for their system admirals. Stats pending, but probably only doing 0.5G, and likely capable of carrying a few hundred fighters as well as a lot of point-defense weapons.


I haven't figured out the alien races' stuff yet, though I have a 10,000,000-ton (SM +16) Imperial command carrier in mind for the one, and am trying to come up with ideas for another to distinguish them from the more warlike humans and reptilians.


This help?