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Old 09-16-2018, 06:40 AM   #1
Devil_Dante
 
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Default standard mafig for DF help

Hello guys, i'm here because i need help and your wisdom. It will be the first time i (the GM) have to deal with Magic. Have some questions for you if you are so nice to help me, about balance, but first i have to explain something.

warning: wall of text

I am using my own setting, created during last years, using external influences like warhammer fantasy, TLotR, the witcher and, very important, Malazan the book of the fallen. I am using a magic system inspired by Malazan's books, and even the magic society has something to do with it (and with the witcher): in my setting does exist an island of wizard where they studied the arcane arts into university. It's a free state, a neutral state in a world on the edge of war and collapse. They take no political positions untill something really crucial happens (and happened during the last war with demons that compelled the Island to take position with the force of humanity). Now, this means that 80% of magic and magic knowledge is there. The magic is strong, and dangerous (and feared). In the magic society there are plots, a lot of, even the magisters are plotting.
Because they are neutral, they don't use magic to solve problems for third parts like famine, or wars or other stuff. They only solve their problems. This because they thing that solving others' problems, will bring to overpopulation and other consequences that will change the natural order of the world (just an example).

Now, hope to have pointed a little bit the important of magic and its position into the world. My problem, having no experience, is how to balance magic into the game. I'm talking about standard magic system (that's the wizards use). Why? Because i don't want to ruin the game for nobody. In my world, the magic items are more than rares. Every magic item has a story, probably a name. Do exist college of wizards that, in extraordinary cases, enchant one item, but for the rest, in the world you can only find basic magic items like potions of heal, and other alchemical items that expire in few days, and they are few and expanseive. This means my PCs won't swim in magic items. The money flow is pretty low.

Reaching the point: in a world like this, if a wizard can dish a 9d fireball in 3 seconds, will make every fighter unnecessary, and this will ruin the experience of my other 3 PCs (pretty much all fighter). In first place i have thought to limit magery at 2, but it seems a extreme way to do it, first, because it doesn't fit the "feel" of the settings, second because the wizard player could have a bad experience and will be forced to focus more on fighting skills (thing that he will do in any way, but he's first a wizard, not a fighter).

From the other hand, i don't want create all the encounters to be "anti-wizard", or the feeling of the world will change in a way that sucks. I know, lot of people say the magic sucks to deal damage, but, in a settings where fighters deal an average of 10-18 damage, having someone that can do far more better can be frustrating (and on top of this the wizard can do battlefield control, have better mobility, has range ecc..).

i'm capping the damage to 5d, but it seems a bad way to fix it. I'd wish to see magic dangerous and strong, but without breaking the game and, more important, the fun for everyone. I know could be a stupid argument, but i lack experience, so, i do you handle this?

Thanks everyone for help!

edit: i'm banning power stone and capping power reserve to 3

Last edited by Devil_Dante; 09-16-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:01 AM   #2
Brandon_Corey
 
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Default Re: standard mafig for DF help

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Originally Posted by Devil_Dante View Post
Reaching the point: in a world like this, if a wizard can dish a 9d fireball in 3 seconds, will make every fighter unnecessary, and this will ruin the experience of my other 3 PCs (pretty much all fighter).
I believe you're overestimating the power of a fireball. Sure, a wizard can do 9d of damage... at the cost of spending 9 FP (maybe 8 or 7 if he has high skill to reduce cost) and 4 seconds of combat time (5 if he needs to Aim). It's really a "1 per encounter" trick. But a fighter can kill multiple enemies in that time.

There's also the matter of actually hitting the target - most wizards don't have very high Innate Attack skill, and many enemies have decent chances of dodging that fireball (especially if they decide to drop to the ground, getting +3 to that Dodge roll).

Also, the rare encounter with an enemy so tough that it needs to be killed with a high-damage attack (it has enough DR to shrug off sword blows) and the fighters need to protect the wizard for 3-4 turns seems quite interesting.

(In my experience, it is not the Missile spells you have to be vary of, but the various "save-or-be-incapacitated" spells from Mind Control and Body Control colleges)

That aside, what point totals are your players' characters going to be, and how high do you expect their (combat) skills to be?
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: standard mafig for DF help

A ST 15 fighter with a greatsword does 3d every turn, or 9d in the same three turns it takes the wizard to charge up (12d if you count the 4th turn to actually attack) -- and at no FP cost.
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Old 09-16-2018, 10:33 AM   #4
Turhan's Bey Company
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Default Re: standard mafig for DF help

I would suggest, along with these other posts, that you don't need to be worried, because magic use carries severe limitations you're not paying attention to.

Wizards can perform some pretty badass feats. However, they're limited in how much they can do over time because they have limited power. Yes, a wizard can do 9d in a single attack. But, as others have pointed out, he spends several turns winding up for that attack (during which he can be interrupted and have to start over), he may not hit with that attack (in which case the power he put into the spell is wasted), and there's already a built-in cap on how much of this he can even attempt in the form of FP and energy reserves before he has to go and rest for a while. Meanwhile, all the warriors are potentially doing two to three dice of damage a turn, every turn, and can pretty much do that all day. And in the course of actual adventuring, that endurance really matters. The wizard simply can't walk into every encounter at full power and blow away whatever he finds. He's a resource which has to be managed.

What that means is that wizards and warriors have different roles. Wizards are, in combat, heavy artillery. They can deliver a few devastating blows, but they've got limited ammo, they're slow to bring that power to bear, and they're vulnerable to close-in attack. Warriors may do less damage per attack, but they've got essentially unlimited attacks and are more often designed to avoid or simply absorb damage which would take a wizard out of the fight.

So, then, let me suggest that you not change rules which you already admit to being unfamiliar with. In actual play, these things really do work out as one might hope.
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Old 09-16-2018, 10:44 AM   #5
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: standard mafig for DF help

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
A ST 15 fighter with a greatsword does 3d every turn, or 9d in the same three turns it takes the wizard to charge up (12d if you count the 4th turn to actually attack) -- and at no FP cost.
Or 2D+2 with a broadsword and gets a +2 DB from his Medium Shield. The sword and shield guy probably beats the greatsword user in a one-on-one fight just on the basis of that DB. That +2 DB would help him Dodge that all or nothing Fireball too.

Missile Spells are a very minimal factor unless you're in a really high pt game with tons of FP boosters and pts to spend on Innate Attack Skills. They cost too much they take too long and range penalties will kill you.
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Old 09-16-2018, 11:43 AM   #6
Devil_Dante
 
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Default Re: standard mafig for DF help

thanks for replies

I supposed i was looking the problem from the wrong prospective.
So, in your opinions wizard will not break the game?

My players are 200-230 points characters with disadvantages (can't remember now)

So, i can take off the stupid limitation i planned to use? Your argumentations are pretty convincing
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Old 09-16-2018, 11:59 AM   #7
Anaraxes
 
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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Or 2D+2 with a broadsword and gets a +2 DB from his Medium Shield.
I'd go with sword and board myself for general superiority. I picked the greatsword only to make it come out to an even 3d, to match the wizard, on the assumption that we're comparing glass cannons. (And didn't bother to mention the damage multiplier for cut rather than mere burning damage :))

If you're carrying a shield, you can better afford the extra point of damage from a U weapon, getting the fighter back to 3d per turn. But it's nice having Parry (and multiple parries) when the swarms of little guys show up. (Another situation where having one 9d attack doesn't help...)
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:04 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Devil_Dante View Post
thanks for replies

I supposed i was looking the problem from the wrong prospective.
So, in your opinions wizard will not break the game?
They might, but it's not the direct damage that you need to be worried about.
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Old 09-16-2018, 12:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: standard mafig for DF help

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Originally Posted by Devil_Dante View Post
So, in your opinions wizard will not break the game?
Fireballs will definitely not break the game. Imagine if a single badass fighter had to take four seconds to swing her axe of doom (during which she could be interrupted) and then missed and was too tired to swing again. Nobody would want to play that fighter. Luckily, wizards have plenty of other things they can do with magic besides firing costly missiles.

In my experience, wizards are more prone to unbalance things if they have a lot of utility spells and you don't have much time pressure in your scenarios. Practical spells like invisibility, lockmaster, mage stealth, and levitation allow wizards and their allies to get around many mundane obstacles. Mind control and illusions make things even more interesting. If wizards can rest safely between obstacles, they can recover their FP, allowing them to steal the show. But this is easily managed with thoughtful adventure design.
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Old 09-16-2018, 01:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: standard mafig for DF help

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Originally Posted by Devil_Dante View Post
So, in your opinions wizard will not break the game?
My recommendation get Pyramid 3-60 Dungeon Fantasy III and use the Wizardry Refined article. That should solve 9/10ths of any potential "Wizards are breaking the world" problems.


If you aren't doing the DF/DFRPG thing of making Healing magic Cleric only, then you'll have to add the Healing college back in for Wizards, but that's dead simple. Alternately just follow the non-Prerequisites rules for Wizards in the article, that solves most of you're ills, the Prereq redisgn was to remove the Healing College from Wizards for DF.
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