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Old 01-17-2018, 10:34 AM   #61
Deimos
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
LOS for lasers is one of the primary reasons most of my Ogre play stopped at G.E.V. I'll use the maps from shockwave, but very rarely will use either Lasers or CMs.
I'm the same. The whole laser/cm concept never appealed to me, but I like the rest. I also use the items from the later supplements (revetments, etc.).
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:38 AM   #62
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Well, remember that the Hold Fire is NOT an "interrupt". The GEVs will get to fire, but so will the target (if it was eligible to fire in last turn and didn't do so).

2. Simultaneously. This is my preference. No modifier is necessary to discourage gratuitous Hold Fires. A player would not select Hold Fire if he could shoot at the target in his turn. If you still want to encourage the attackers, you could apply the -1.
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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
The second is Hold Fire. If a stand does move and is eligible to fire it can take a Hold Fire marker instead of firing. This allows it to fire during the enemy fire phase, with results being applied simultaneously. In Ogre/GEV, the best approach would be to conduct all Hold Fire, then let the phasing player fire and apply results. Then apply the Hold Fire results.
To be clear, "If a stand does move and is eligible to fire it can take a Hold Fire marker instead of firing."
Should this be "does move" or "does not move"?

I really like the simultaneous Hold Fire Rule. I hope it's officially adopted if it proves viable and compliments the game...and finds it's way into the OGRE PC game. I have a Custom Scenario OPERATION 4DARK 4DELTA that has a Rogue Mark4 OGRE self-mission oriented to destroy all enemy forces in a Paneuropean defended delta. By having a rule like this, I think the Scenario would be balanced no matter what units Paneurope took against the MARK4. As it is, if they take GEV heavy defenses, it becomes unbalanced in favor of Paneurope too much, unfortunately because otherwise, it's pretty tight. Having this rule would really correct that issue because it would allow the OGRE more survivability and the Scenario would be able to play itself out to a closer and more bitter ending. If the OGRE doesn't move and those GEVs want to attack it, it's ready for them. Otherwise they cake-walk the OGRE too much and it really kill-joys the whole game.

What I find really good about this rule is the simultaneous nature of it. That would create a great nail-biting tension currently missing from the game. There is a gap between GEVs cake-walking a OGRE when it gets reduced movement and being a fully functioning undamaged one. This would bridge that gap beautifully Imho.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 01-25-2018 at 05:07 AM.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:00 PM   #63
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
To be clear, "If a stand does move and is eligible to fire it can take a Hold Fire marker instead of firing."
Should this be "does move" or "does not move"?

I really like the simultaneous Hold Fire Rule. I hope it's officially adopted if it proves viable and compliments the game...and finds it's way into the OGRE PC game. I have a Custom Scenario OPERATION 4DARK 4DELTA that has a Rogue Mark4 OGRE self-mission oriented to destroy all enemy forces in a Paneuropean defended delta. By having a rule like this, I think the Scenario would be balanced no matter what units Paneurope took against the MARK4. As it is, if they take GEV heavy defenses, it becomes unbalanced in favor of Paneurope too much, unfortunately because otherwise, it's pretty tight. Having this rule would really correct that issue because it would allow the OGRE more survivability and the Scenario would be able to play itself out to a closer and more bitter ending. If the OGRE doesn't move and those GEVs want to attack it, it's ready for them. Otherwise they cake-walk the OGRE too much and it really kill-joys the whole game.

What I find really good about this rule is the simultaneous nature of it. That would create a great nail-biting tension currently missing from the game. There is a gap between GEVs cake-walking a OGRE when it gets reduced movement and being a fully functioning undamaged one. This would bridge that gap beautifully Imho.
I think I over-complicated it. A unit that is eligible to fire - regardless of whether it moved - can instead take a hold fire marker and conduct fire in the next enemy combat phase.

In FFT3, there’s “overwatch”, which is the classic form of opportunity fire (i.e., you fire during the enemy movement phase). Normally, stands cannot move and must otherwise be eligible to fire.

A stand that moves - and therefore doesn't qualify for Overwatch - can take a Hold Fire marker. (Overwatch is superior to Hold Fire in FFT3, so a stand would conduct Overwatch fire rather than Hiold Fire if possible).

Since I’m not advocating an overwatch rule for GEV, movement is irrelevant for Hold Fire. All that’s required is that a unit be eligible to fire and chooses not to do so.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:03 PM   #64
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Your use of "stand" instead of "unit" or "figure" keeps making me imagine an Ogre/Jojo's Bizarre Adventure crossover.

Can self-aware Ogres be stand users?
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:18 PM   #65
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Your use of "stand" instead of "unit" or "figure" keeps making me imagine an Ogre/Jojo's Bizarre Adventure crossover.

Can self-aware Ogres be stand users?
Yeah, it’s a habit from A Fistful of TOWs. In FFT, a stand is a single model (representing 4-6 vehicles) or infantry stand (representing a platoon). A unit is a company or battalion. A formation is a battalion, brigade or regiment.
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Old 01-25-2018, 06:30 PM   #66
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
A unit that is eligible to fire - regardless of whether it moved - can instead take a hold fire marker and conduct fire in the next enemy combat phase.

Since I’m not advocating an overwatch rule for GEV, movement is irrelevant for Hold Fire. All that’s required is that a unit be eligible to fire and chooses not to do so.
Even better. I'd really like to see this in the OGRE PC game on STEAM...I'd pay extra for it as a DLC add on. It's a simple and elegant rule and brings something special and complimentary to the game play that Imho has been missing. After 40 years of playing OGRE, you just made my OGREverse more enjoyable!
Thanks for sharing this. :)

Is it alright if I mention this over on the OGRE PC game Forums and ask if it may be possible to implement this as DLC for the game? Yes, this is that good. Since it would be DLC, people who don't want to use it don't have to.

As a side note, I find this Variant Rule may be the explanation of what distinguishes the OGREs with Descartes Packages from ones that have none. Of course, this would mean only OGREs could use this Rule then that have Descartes Packages, which limits it's use in a way I don't really care for, I'd like to see it useable by all units.
Unless you had something like OGREs with Descartes Packages use this rule, they can move or not move and use it, and all other units can use the same rule except they must not move in order to use it. Maybe too much there, but I'm always looking for something to give OGREs with Descartes Packages a fitting rule that compliments the descriptive text about it in OGRE MINIATURES.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 01-25-2018 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:20 PM   #67
dwalend
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Despite being in position and waiting for the enemy, each of the non-moving tanks either had to give up their position or let the enemy shoot first.
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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
You have to decide if you want to hold the position or advance; that's the whole point.
Instead of one LT, use two. One can hold the position. The other can chase the GEV. (Or both hold - at least one will survive, probably both. Or both chase to gang up on that GEV.)
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Old 01-26-2018, 05:08 AM   #68
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
Instead of one LT, use two. One can hold the position. The other can chase the GEV. (Or both hold - at least one will survive, probably both. Or both chase to gang up on that GEV.)
That's also true - a single LT isn't supposed to be a match for a single GEV.
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Old 01-26-2018, 05:38 AM   #69
Broadway Phil
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

I think this is workable as an optional rule. But one item that seems to have been forgotten, and complicates matters, is that these units should be quite capable of accurate fire while on the move. (This started a long time ago, when American tanks in World War II had some gyrostablization, and both the Russians and French had experimented with it before the war. Also, while the speeds are slower, ships at sea have been doing this for much longer than that, especially in the past 100 years or so once fire direction was established.) An Ogre in particular should have no trouble with the computations involved.

Thus a longer-ranged vehicle might well be able to hit and destroy a shorter-ranged one that is lying in wait for it to approach. Of course the reverse is true when the waiting vehicle has the longer range... see how this gets complicated? So now that would leave us with overwatch, balanced by the moving player being able to fire a unit before it finishes moving. Markers handle that, but it's an extra layer of complexity. YMMV.

I might experiment with Hold Fire, but the RAW probably work best most of the time.

Phil
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Old 01-26-2018, 08:26 AM   #70
dwalend
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by ianargent View Post
That's also true - a single LT isn't supposed to be a match for a single GEV.
I'll nit-pick contrapositive - if you can set things up so a single LT is a match for a GEV in an even fight, that's freed up an LT to be elsewhere. Somewhere on the board you are already ahead.

To GP's earlier point - on a green-map GEV game - setting up even matches to hold a line relies too much on luck. I use it only as a despriation tactic. I'd rather give ground if I can. When I decide to focus on going for the first shot in an exchange I'm likely already in a tough spot.

I'd prefer to let that GEV pilot decide to either take a shot at one of 4 LTs before taking the retaliation. Or maybe he'll decide to move to a less important part of the fight. It's much better to set up a localized concentration of force, then use several turns to convert those advantageous clashes into a board-wide advantage.

Hold-fire rules might be fun, or could really slow down the game. They could increase the utility of ground-holding tactics, in an initial clash. They might open some new tactical options, but close others. I don't think they'll change the ultimate outcome. (If they do then maybe they're out of balance.)
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