07-14-2016, 06:36 AM | #51 | ||||||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
|
Re: Swords and plate
Quote:
If you want to get an idea of how good they were against piecing take a look at this. It's about crossbows that fire with far more energy than swords get thrust but you get the idea. And of course it was a combined effect, a point that's had its penetration reduced to an inch through plate is a lot easier to withstand than a point without the intervening plate. And of course there's not really many places on the body where an inch of penetration is going to be much of a problem in the short term. *sorry which video are you referring to, I seem to have missed it. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Thing is swords just don't transmit that much force, (certainly nothing like what footballers withstand in tackles) Quote:
Quote:
1). armour was not ubiquitous or when present always full coverage i.e your opponent may not be armoured, or bits of him might not be armoured, so hit those bits. A halberd blade will easily mess up someone's unarmoured leg, and it won't matter much if they have a breastplate on. 2) not all tactics against armoured target involved trying to penetrate past their full armour (see the earlier examples of this in the thread) 3). Reality is not ever completely cut and dried, given enough heavy blows from a halberd I'm sure plate will eventually fail. It's just even taking that into account in a combat situation the difference between compete invulnerability and effective protection from such blows is pretty moot. Which is also why I'm fine with the occasional point of damage getting past in favourable circumstances. i.e an absolute position is rarely a correct one. Last edited by Tomsdad; 07-14-2016 at 07:41 AM. |
||||||
07-14-2016, 07:54 AM | #52 | |||||||
Join Date: Oct 2004
|
Re: Swords and plate
[QUOTE=Tomsdad;2020775]
Quote:
You said: "Such weapons were not well known armour piercing weapons because of their cutting blades." Evidence clearly suggests otherwise. You said: "all the evidence points to the fact" When actually, _all_ the evidence does not. In fact, I've presented a strong counter-example. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You must understand how strongly this refutes the "Realistically, its extremely difficult for a blade edge to cut through any sort of armor" when this is not just ANY SORT of armor being cut, but knights on the battlefield in plate. And you keep saying plate, when I'm saying ANY SORT of armor. It's a bogus line, like the others I've pointed out. Quote:
|
|||||||
07-14-2016, 08:21 AM | #53 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
|
Re: Swords and plate
You know what I was going to do my usual point by point reply, but actually I'm just repeating myself so why bother. Besides everything can be summed up in one point as follows:
Quote:
But it seems that you cannot or will not make that distinction (and your posts have consistently failed to, or ignored it) instead relying in the rather dodgy logical construction that because armoured men fought (and trained to fight) against each other with halberds therefore halberds regularly cut though plate. It is rather indicative of your argument, and there is no point in continuing this conversation. But no comment on the halberd vs. the car bonnet? EDIT OK for self control issue reasons :-) I will answer one more point: Quote:
In fact a lot of the non-serious experimentation back it up as well! Which is why your man with his halberd going at full tilt struggled to cut through a car bonnet! Last edited by Tomsdad; 07-14-2016 at 08:39 AM. |
||
07-14-2016, 08:29 AM | #54 | |
☣
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
|
Re: Swords and plate
Quote:
__________________
RyanW - Actually one normal sized guy in three tiny trenchcoats. |
|
07-14-2016, 08:42 AM | #55 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
|
Re: Swords and plate
For this, which is an outright lie and misstatement of what I have argued, you go to the permanent ignore list.
|
07-14-2016, 08:54 AM | #56 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
|
Re: Swords and plate
Quote:
I took this as linked almost entirely tongue in cheek, but I could be mistaken.
__________________
My blog:Gaming Ballistic, LLC My Store: Gaming Ballistic on Shopify My Patreon: Gaming Ballistic on Patreon |
|
07-14-2016, 08:57 AM | #57 |
Join Date: Jun 2006
|
Re: Swords and plate
I think the issue for the context of the thread (which is after all simulation in a game) is that this distinction doesn't matter. In what way would the rules change? You can't simply stop with armor is "impenetrable" because clearly people in armor could be fought with these weapons successfully, and that has to be modelled too. I suppose you could make the edge protection and chinks in armor rules even more complicated, but they're already pushing if not over the limits of tolerable complexity for most games.
__________________
-- MA Lloyd |
07-14-2016, 09:01 AM | #58 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
|
Re: Swords and plate
Quote:
Quote:
(and if you argue crushing damage though armour, edge protection explicitly allows for that) |
||
07-14-2016, 09:07 AM | #59 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
|
Re: Swords and plate
Quote:
All those other historical tactics that the distinction is about are completely unaffected by such a change, In fact if anything they are encouraged. Upping DR doesn't actually complicate anything (1d+3 vs. DR8 is no more complicated than 1d+3 vs. DR4) So yes people in armour could of course be fought, just just they were fought in ways that didn't rely in directly penetrating their full DR (as per all the things mentioned already). Ways that already exist in the system. What ironic is that those fight manuals mentioned in the point about the distinction above are famous for illustrating those very tactics. Last edited by Tomsdad; 07-14-2016 at 09:11 AM. |
|
07-14-2016, 09:18 AM | #60 |
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
|
Re: Swords and plate
Weapon shafts weren't just made from hardwood, they were made from slow-growth saplings or coppiced branches so that the heartwood and sapwood were both employed and the growth rings were completely contained within the shaft. These poles are much stronger and generally more resilient than modern poles, which tend to be carved from much larger chunks of wood taken from plantation timber grown as quickly as possible.
__________________
Compact Castles gives the gamer an instant portfolio of genuine, real-world castle floorplans to use in any historical, low-tech, or fantasy game setting. Last edited by DanHoward; 07-14-2016 at 09:27 AM. |
Tags |
armor, hema |
|
|