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Old 03-25-2019, 01:07 AM   #1
Ultraviolet
 
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Default Trip (MA81), can it be used on Step-and-Attack? Hit loc for fall?

Greetings

The technique Trip (MA81) rules that it counts as a parry, and can be used on a Slamming foe. It can also be used to intercept a foe running (not merely a step) past you, through your hex or an adjacent one.

So would it be reasonable to use under other circumstances?
-If a foe steps in and attacks you? As an interception it can't be used on merely a step, for needs to "run" which I interpret as Move 2+. So if a foe does a Step-and-Attack, that sounds like a no. Unless, maybe, it is a Committed Attack with double-step?
-If a foe charges you? Meaning an AoA, which allows ½Move (forward). So if the foe actually moves 2+ yards, then it sounds ok?

And how about the Trip itself, how does the foe land? Falling down usually means prone/supine. There is no mention of any damage form the trip, as opposed to a Judo Throw. But I'd like to have had the option of making the tripping foe hitting his head on something. Like if you fight in a hallway, you could direct the trip so his own momentum carries him head first into a wall.
Again, I'm guessing no. What I want actually sounds not like a Trip, but rather just a Judo Parry followed by a Judo Throw as my next move.
And by TG terms that would be a defensive throw.
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: Trip (MA81), can it be used on Step-and-Attack? Hit loc for fall?

The description for Trip seems pretty clear that it's limited to slams and foes running past you, and excludes steps. They have to have some committed momentum. Steps in combat are more cautious balanced motion.

I'd rule that a Tripped foe winds up with his feet in the hex where you tripped him, and his head in the direction of his motion (the hex he was about to move into).

If you want to put steppers on the ground, and especially if you want to control where they fall, I'd recommend looking at the throws. You can feel free to narrate the attack (or defensive throw) as using your feet or legs to catch theirs and trip them (in the casual sense), guiding them with your hands. That's how a lot of throws work, after all.
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Old 03-25-2019, 09:55 AM   #3
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Default Re: Trip (MA81), can it be used on Step-and-Attack? Hit loc for fall?

Examples of "you can do this, but can't do that" for Trip would be helpful, I'm not sure for example if it applies to someone moving from the front-left to the back-left, or only if they continue on past that to another place.

There was a custom technique in Pyramid 3/61 called 'Interdiction' based on buying off some of the drawbacks of Trip I think, which might help in understanding it, as well as the initial outline Kromm did http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=15
your opponent must be running from in front of you to behind you (from your front hexes to your side or back hexes, on a battle map)
Drawback:
Limited target selection -- only foes running from front to back within reach (+1)
Then:
it isn't that useful except when an enemy does something odd that he probably won't do if the GM allows this technique
I don't know that the "running" necessarily implies any kind of speed, front hexes to side hexes could include a mere 1 hex of movement, so should it matter whether it's part of a step or part of a Maneuver using Movement Points?
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:36 AM   #4
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Default Re: Trip (MA81), can it be used on Step-and-Attack? Hit loc for fall?

It sounds very similar but ultimately we're talking about different approaches. A runner can't do much to defend against someone they're actively colliding with but they can do a lot to evade someone coming at them. You could use a sweep-leg technique on someone running within a hex of you, or knee them in the crotch if Queensbury rules are out the window.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: Trip (MA81), can it be used on Step-and-Attack? Hit loc for fall?

I don't think it's as broad as within a hex, you can't trip someone who's running directly at you from the front (unless they're trying to evade you and run into your rear hex) for example.

I'm actually not sure what order you resolve that in... to try a Trip do you have to lose the Evade contest first, or can you try to Trip first and then try to obstruct their evasion?

What you can do, is a Wait > Stop Thrust as "can’t retreat if he moved more than a step toward you" to make it harder to avoid (and you get a +1 to damage in that case of them moving 2 yards too!)

If you want free attacks in place of parries, if someone's trying to evade you you can try an Obstruction instead of a Trip with your weapon, as that can inflict damage.
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Old 03-26-2019, 04:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: Trip (MA81), can it be used on Step-and-Attack? Hit loc for fall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I don't think it's as broad as within a hex, you can't trip someone who's running directly at you from the front (unless they're trying to evade you and run into your rear hex) for example.

I'm actually not sure what order you resolve that in... to try a Trip do you have to lose the Evade contest first, or can you try to Trip first and then try to obstruct their evasion?

What you can do, is a Wait > Stop Thrust as "can’t retreat if he moved more than a step toward you" to make it harder to avoid (and you get a +1 to damage in that case of them moving 2 yards too!)

If you want free attacks in place of parries, if someone's trying to evade you you can try an Obstruction instead of a Trip with your weapon, as that can inflict damage.
Trip specifically states it is a defence against a Slam, so it can work om somebody running directly towards you. I assume it involved a minimum of sidestepping (within your hex) or twisting out of the way - otherwise you'll get hit. It doesn't mention Sideslip, but I assume that would be ok.

I'm not interesting in free attacks instead of a parry, that sounds abusive. If you wanted to do that, you should call a Wait action and then attack of Sweep someone running past you with a long weapon.
But Trip as written allows you to intercept-trip someone running past you, in your hex or an adjacent one. I know you need to think logical about it, so you'd need to notice the runner before it was too late, so someone may run past your back.

I think my own conclusion is that:
*I'll allow a Trip on a parry versus at attacker moving 2+ yards towards you, not just Slams
*I'll treat the trip as simple, for no damage and with the foe ending in two hexes, with his legs in the hex he was when tripped and the upper body in the direction he was moving.
*Otherwise I'd use normal parry followed by a (defensive) Judo Throw, and direct where the foe lands using normal rules for this. Like hit location penalty for flipping him head first into an adjacent wall.
*Or a Grabbing Parry followed by a Grab-and-Smash in the next round to Kiss the Wall.
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Old 03-26-2019, 07:08 AM   #7
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Default Re: Trip (MA81), can it be used on Step-and-Attack? Hit loc for fall?

If you wish to knock someone over when they're not moving, its a sweep. Sweep feels a lot more like the trip mechanics in other games, and its exceptionally versatile. The real limitation is that its a -3 technique. I've had a player who sprung for it though, and the results were awesome. I wouldn't call that situation unarmed though: It was generally used in close quarters combat aboard a spaceship in full armor.
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Old 03-26-2019, 01:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: Trip (MA81), can it be used on Step-and-Attack? Hit loc for fall?

You know what's weird? B223 mentions Sumo Wrestling "represents any training at grabbing, shoving, and tripping" but I don't think Tripping was introduced until MA81 so this must have referred to B232's "Sweeping Kick" which aside from Sumo, can also be done with Judo or Karate although neither of them mention tripping like Sumo does.

When MA81 revisited "Sweep" in addition to clarifying that "Sweeping Kick" can be done at reach C,1 like a kick (Basic Set didn't mention that) it also added the "stiff arm" option for J/K/S ("upper body" is neck or head, I guess it's attacker's choice) and a grappling option for J/S ("a pull in a clinch") and also a "Brawling" option but only for those who have Strikers.

I assume whether the striker hits the legs (like a sweeping kick) or neck/head (like a clothesline) would depend on where it originates, tails would probably work like legs while heavy ponytails would probably work like arms. You'd have to attach something level with where your striker originates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
Trip specifically states it is a defence against a Slam, so it can work om somebody running directly towards you.
"cause a two-legged foe to stumble and miss with a slam" does not actually specify who it is you can target with it. That appears to come later:
you can use Trip to intercept someone running past you (not merely stepping) within a yard
The "not merely stepping" I think might prohibit using it against even someone who uses 2 steps due to Committed Attack, or who is able to perform a 2-step retreat via a technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
I assume it involved a minimum of sidestepping (within your hex) or twisting out of the way - otherwise you'll get hit.
Or: you need to dodge a Slam as normal, but then once you do so, it causes the Slam to run past you and you are able to then use a parry to Trip them.

It doesn't mention Sideslip, but I assume that would be ok.[/quote]
It does mention it:
You can’t retreat for a bonus, either – or use a Slip or Sideslip (see Retreat Options, pp. 123-124).
I'm not sure if "for a bonus" means you CAN retreat (but don't get the bonus of +1 to parry from Wrestling/Sumo or +3 to parry from Judo) or not. If it's an absolute prohibition against retreats: is that just against the slamming attacker, or no retreats at all that turn? If the 2nd, would that mean you can't do a Trip if you've already retreated?

What about stuff that disables retreats anyway (so you lose nothing) such as Move and Attack, Committed Attack, or if you've performed a Leg Parry or a Sacrificial Dodge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
I'm not interesting in free attacks instead of a parry, that sounds abusive.
Naw, or they wouldn't have introduced "Aggressive Parry".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
If you wanted to do that, you should call a Wait action and then attack of Sweep someone running past you with a long weapon.
That would be less effective than a Trip, since Trips cause a roll to avoid falling down on a successful active defense (2 roll process) while a Sweep requires 4 rolls (that you hit, that they don't successfully actively defend, that you win a quick contest, AND they fail an Acrobatics-5 roll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
But Trip as written allows you to intercept-trip someone running past you, in your hex or an adjacent one. I know you need to think logical about it, so you'd need to notice the runner before it was too late, so someone may run past your back.
If we were to apply perception checks to notice what people were doing in combat, I'd do that across the board rather than just this situation. I think somewhere in Pyramid that had been suggested as an intrinsic +10 to perception modified by speed/range table?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
I'll allow a Trip on a parry versus at attacker moving 2+ yards towards you, not just Slams
I'm not sure about ALL situations like that. You might Move and Attack and come to a complete stop and attack someone, for example.

It would already apply when doing a Shield Rush or when doing Slams with Long Weapons.

I wonder if perhaps Flying Tackle / Pounce should be an exception... if you are culminating in a LEAP (to get +1 to reach) then it seems like you should come to a stop on the ground if your target dodges you, rather than stumble a couple yards.

It would probably be good for an attacker to specify whether or not they are maintaining momentum at the end of a Move/M+A maneuver. If they are, they get the +20% (or more, with Enhanced Move) bonus on their next turn due to Sprinting, but would be trippable. If they're not, then they shouldn't be trippable. So there would be a benefit/drawback to either option.

Slams would automatically be acceleration-maintained if you moved 2+ yards and had remaining Movement Points when you hit the target, according to Basic Set rules.

It's too bad Technical Grappling didn't mention Trip :( I think it would fall under "balance upsetting moves" that some stuff (like Perfect Balance) gives bonuses against, pretty much anything where Sweep was mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
If you wish to knock someone over when they're not moving, its a sweep. Sweep feels a lot more like the trip mechanics in other games, and its exceptionally versatile. The real limitation is that its a -3 technique. I've had a player who sprung for it though, and the results were awesome. I wouldn't call that situation unarmed though: It was generally used in close quarters combat aboard a spaceship in full armor.
We could do a custom technique (like how a shove converts to a punch-like "slap" at -1) where for Boxers/Brawlers/Karateka an Aggressive Parry (-1) becomes a "Clothesline Parry" at -2, and for Brawlers/Karateka a "Jam" at -1 becomes a "Sweeping Jam" at -2.

An additional -1 (ie a technique adaptation perk) to make it available to the grappling forms which don't get Jams/Aggressive Parries...

Or for the grappling-based version of sweep ("pull in a clinch") just have it default to a Grabbing Parry / Escaping Parry but instead of attacking to inflict/remove control points, it attacks as a low-power sweep.

Since an Aggressive Parry or Jam does -2 damage (equivalent to -4 to ST) compared to punch/elbow or kick/kneestrike, for the contest when it says "your Sweep or ST vs. your
victim’s ST or DX" a -4 in that contest for "free sweep upon a successful parry" would be fair and balanced with how those work.
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