How does MainGauche and TwoWeapons skill fit with each other?

[Nils_Lindeberg]

I am not after house rulings. You can always do that. But I am trying to figure out what is RAW and what is RAI.

It seems a little strange to me that you can use a dagger in your left hand without any talent for it and make a secondary attack. And you can fight with two weapons without a talent, but with a high negative dex modifier. Cesti mentions punching and gives a -3/-3 adjustment, but at the same time mentions that a cestus works like a MG, which would mean -0/-4 if you used one cestus in your main hand, and then used your left-hand MG attack.

You can fight with a sword and an MG in your left hand. And you can hit a person with an unarmed attack (not UC), but it is not specified if you can do so with a torch in one hand, or a sword, and so on.

So can you hit someone with a punch, even though you have a sword in your other hand? If you can do that, one would assume you can do that with a sword attack and a punch too? With a -6 on both attacks at the very least. But with Two Weapons talent, you should be able to hit with a -0/-4. And I feel that it would be logical to be able to do that with a dagger, MG, a cestus that works like a MG and a fist, even though the latter is not specially mentioned.

And from that, you could take it one step further and do it with brawling or UC, but those ones are a stretch.

Normally you can apply a balance calculation to these things since TFT is a pretty darn balanced game. And doing so gives us a good reason to think that it would be balanced. In most cases where you could use this, a dagger would work just as well, and it would do more damage. But it would also mean you couldn't open a door or that you had to draw the dagger, while the punch is always there. Fairly balanced against having a small shield or a dagger I would say, and it would give us a more cinematic story with push, shoves, and so on from the swordsman that only have a single one handed weapon.

So if not RAW, or errata worthy, but RAI perhaps? Or would it be unbalanced or would it complicate things?

[Skarg]

I would expect that RAI is that the GM can choose whether to deny or indulge such ideas, or other stunts, as they see fit.


As for your specific ideas:

I think the left-hand dagger attack (and main gauche abilities) probably should require at least the Knife talent. Even if it's not, it's not likely to work without it. (And if like me, you keep the old -4 DX for untalented weapon use AND have rules for effects of very low adjDX, then it becomes even less likely to be a good idea.)

Cestus is an unusual weapon (and almost all the unusual weapons still have some development/balance issues), and requires an unusual weapon talent.

Also, I think perhaps cestus compares a bit more oddly in Legacy edition to main gauche than it did in original Advanced Melee (where attacking with a weapon AND a main gauche put BOTH attacks at -4), because main gauche changed from a dubious weapon to an actually pretty good option in Legacy edition.

I think you can do a non-UC unarmed attack if you have something in your main hand, because presumably you can kick, punch with the left hand, and maybe bludgeon with the right even though it's holding something. But no, I would not assume that RAW nor RAI are that you can make an unarmed attack AND make a sword attack on the same turn, or else it would say so, and it certainly isn't just a -4 with no penalty to your main attack, or else that'd be something people would probably do quite a lot.

Most melee attacks represent full undistracted effort with the one attack - the talents and equipment that enable multiple attacks are the exceptions.

Your suggestion that you could do both at once at -6 to each... seems to me like ok as something I might tend to allow, though not RAW.

As for balance, I think that unarmed damage in ITL is a bit high for what it is, especially at the high and low ends of the ST scale where clubs do as well as talent-requiring steel military weapons of the same ST, and especially with the availability of Brawling and clubs based on it. With the damage nudged down, I think it would be less of a problem.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

I also assume double penalties for lacking talent (knife) and do a secondary attack with the left hand.

So the whole thing comes down to the fact that you can do a left-handed attack (with the knife talent) at -4. Or you could use a shield. And those are the reasons why people wouldn't often use a left-handed fist attack. You usually have something in that hand, and if nothing else, a torch.

With the two-weapon talent you can whack them with any weapon at a -4, so can you do it with a fist attack? Does the fist attack qualify as a weapon in the context of the 2-w talent? Or do you need some sort of improvised weapon, knuckle duster or some such? Could you use a right cestus for your main attack and then with the 2-W. talent attack at 0/4 instead of -3/-3?

The rules are not really clear or logical/intuitive on this.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

So the whole thing comes down to the fact that you can do a left-handed attack (with the knife talent) at -4. Or you could use a shield. And those are the reasons why people wouldn't often use a left-handed fist attack. You usually have something in that hand, and if nothing else, a torch.

I think rather that the main reason is that it works better in reality to focus your attention on fighting with the sword, as opposed to trying to add a left-hand punch in with what you're doing with yourself while sword fighting.

Despite having a left hand and arm that aren't holding anything, it does not follow that you can also generally do an attack with that and not interfere with your sword use.

In this way, I think the original rules felt more correct to me.

As another player suggested on the TFT Discord server recently, perhaps Main Gauche should be a 1-point talent (prereq: knife) required to do the new Legacy version of Main Gauche, but that it be included in Fencing (if you have it, you can learn Fencing for 2 points).

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

With the two-weapon talent you can whack them with any weapon at a -4, so can you do it with a fist attack? Does the fist attack qualify as a weapon in the context of the 2-w talent? Or do you need some sort of improvised weapon, knuckle duster or some such?

Not RAW, no. It specifies weapons that you have a talent for.

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

Could you use a right cestus for your main attack and then with the 2-W. talent attack at 0/4 instead of -3/-3?

Ask your GM. The Fencing and Two Weapons talents mention the concept of what's traditionally taught. So I'd tend to think each school might train in certain specific types of weapons, and while maybe one could involve Cestus, probably many/most would not, and I don't think of it as a necessary conclusion that you can combine anything. Then again, Cestus is pretty rare for anyone to know even by itself in my campaigns, so... again, ask your GM.

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

The rules are not really clear or logical/intuitive on this.

They're not, probably because there are so many possible combinations, and they were written and re-written in phases. The TFT rules overall tend to turn over details to the GM at a certain point.


If someone really wanted a character that could punch at -4 while using a weapon, I might offer it as a special combat talent, though I might tease them by calling it Bitch Slap. ;-)