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Old 04-15-2020, 01:49 AM   #41
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
1). the new player who really is not sure about the choices available to them. And yep definitely I'd give them extra leeway here (they're not choosing to hesitate and they're not going to have much fun otherwise if I force them to act)

2). the master chess player who want's to expertly craft their response like they're playing a turn based strategy game with out a timer. and that's not how I run my combats.


NB: this is just how I run my games, not some one true way or anything!
1) Yep, that's what I worry over. I don't know the rules well enough and I've been using 4th since a year after it came out and some 3rd back in the day, so I'm not going to expect the players to know it well.

2) I and the one player who do know the rules the most plan things out during other players' and the GM's turns so that we can take into account of possible actions so that by the time our turn comes up, we already know what we want to do. I'm actually glad for this player because the others get to see cool new ways to use basic items.


EDIT:
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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Player: I Do nothing.
But when would a player do this? Wait and AoD are strictly better ways to 'do nothing'.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 04-15-2020, 01:58 AM   #42
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Speaking of D&D: "These hit points represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors." Elsewhere it is flat out stated "As has been detailed, hit points are not actually o measure of physical damage, by and large, as far as characters (and some other creatures as well) are concerned."
As someone who started with D&D, the idea that "hit points directly correlate with actual injury soaked" and "everyone just stands around for 6 seconds, and makes one attack", were never actually RAW or RAI.

You duel for six seconds, and make one *effective* attack. Or you're attacking at range, meaning you aim for 2-5 seconds (depending on whether you take a Move action or whatever), and make one attack.

Anyway, back to GURPS. :)

Also, just to be clear, I'm agreeing with you. :)
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Old 04-15-2020, 02:42 AM   #43
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
1) Yep, that's what I worry over. I don't know the rules well enough and I've been using 4th since a year after it came out and some 3rd back in the day, so I'm not going to expect the players to know it well.


2) I and the one player who do know the rules the most plan things out during other players' and the GM's turns so that we can take into account of possible actions so that by the time our turn comes up, we already know what we want to do. I'm actually glad for this player because the others get to see cool new ways to use basic items.
I think there is a sliding scale here, I'm not literally talking about running stuff at the 1 second level at the table top (this would be impossible anyway for practical reasons) and I don't think you think I am! And my experience is is player tend to be planning out what they will do as the action unfolds at the tabletop at a much slower rate than the second by second time frame being describe.

But the play style I'm trying to avoid is the one where players spend a long time when it's their turn to intricately plot (often involving a lengthy OOC conversation amongst themselves) out what they will do often from a top down position of situational knowledge in what supposed to be a second by second chaotic combat in often chaotic and unknown situations.


Other then my sense of desired verisimilitude, there's also a practical concern (for me anyway). Combat resolution takes time even at the best of times, anything I can do to reduce extra time being taken is (again for me) a good thing.
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-15-2020 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 04-15-2020, 03:17 AM   #44
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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But the play style I'm trying to avoid is the one where players spend a long time when it's their turn to intricately plot (often involving a lengthy OOC conversation amongst themselves) out what they will do often from a top down position of situational knowledge in what supposed to be a second by second chaotic combat in often chaotic and unknown situations.


Other then my sense of desired verisimilitude, there's also a practical concern (for me anyway). Combat resolution takes time even at the best of times, anything I can do to reduce extra time being taken is (again for me) a good thing.
I absolutely agree. I'm glad my players like to throw out answers to each other, even if they aren't good answers ;) As for the players who want to play chess, remind them that both ETS exists and that everyone will frown really hard for someone taking it
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 04-15-2020, 03:49 AM   #45
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
As someone who started with D&D, the idea that "hit points directly correlate with actual injury soaked" and "everyone just stands around for 6 seconds, and makes one attack", were never actually RAW or RAI.

You duel for six seconds, and make one *effective* attack. Or you're attacking at range, meaning you aim for 2-5 seconds (depending on whether you take a Move action or whatever), and make one attack.

Anyway, back to GURPS. :)

Also, just to be clear, I'm agreeing with you. :)
I started with D&D too but it was OD&D followed by AD&D1 before going to the AD&D-GURPS magic hybrid that I have updated so D&D3.x and 5e people can use it (D&D 4e is just too much of a PITA to deal with)

That 6 seconds combat round points to D&D 3.x which came out in 2000 (with the 3.5 tweak in 2003)

As I pointed out AD&D1-2 (1977-1999) has insanely long combat turns compared to GURPS. Yes, that 60 was not a typo.

I was fortunate to get the now very rare Dragon magazine CD-ROM back in the day (if your Google-fu is strong copies can be found on the internet) and it covered The Strategic Review (Spring 1975) to Dragon #250 (August 1998) So it knows only the 60 second long combat round with its 6 second segments, not the far saner 6 second combat round that came with 3.x.

You wouldn't believe the number of articles and letters that did have the "hit points directly correlate with actual injury soaked" idea or basically stand around for 60 second to do your x number of attacks (even in that version at high enough levels classes had more then one attack in a combat round though that 3/2 thing was pain).

The really funny thing is many of the ideas provided in those magazines to fix AD&D1-2 showed up in far more useful form in GURPS.

Want to actual implement the ideas in "For King and Country" (Dragon #101)? GURPS Religion has you covered and then some.

Want a better way then what was in Dragon #51 (July 1981) to make the AD&D1-2 Monk stop sucking? GURPS Martial Arts has you covered. Heck, it is still useful with the 5e monk.

GURPS Blood Types curb stomps Varieties of Vampires in Dragon #25 (May, 1979) and so on.

I still have the CD files (Mac's spotlight is so much better then what the CD offered) and it is an interesting step back to versions of AD&D most people today are totally unfamiliar with.

Last edited by maximara; 04-15-2020 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 04-15-2020, 04:41 AM   #46
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

A suggestion: Instead of punishing a player who take too much action, reward a player who does a do nothing roll.

What can a do-nothing action do?

- Give time to ask questions.
- Give bonus on defense (+1, so no AOA)
- Give bonus on next attack (+1, so no evaluate)
- give the option to make an information roll about something (Is the enemy hurt, what is his weakness, etc).
- Can move around.

The idea is that PC automatically will take do-nothings because they're useful. Maybe do-nothing is not a good name.
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Old 04-15-2020, 05:46 AM   #47
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

The old game Aftermath! had an action that I've always thought was worth putting into lists of possible actions in games, and it seems worth using here. It could be assumed that a non-forced 'Do Nothing' is also this.

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Originally Posted by Survey and Command
This Action allows the character to observe what is going on around him. Normally a character will only observe what is in front of him. This Action also allows the character to make a short coherent statement to other characters without using the normal rules for communication in Detailed Action Time. This Action may not be performed while Engaged.
Some of that is system-specific and can go, but the idea seems sound - spend a turn looking round and possibly saying something more than a short, simple sentence, and you get to not have to make Perception rolls to notice obvious things that aren't right in your face, etc.
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Old 04-15-2020, 06:16 AM   #48
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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The old game Aftermath! had an action that I've always thought was worth putting into lists of possible actions in games, and it seems worth using here. It could be assumed that a non-forced 'Do Nothing' is also this.



Some of that is system-specific and can go, but the idea seems sound - spend a turn looking round and possibly saying something more than a short, simple sentence, and you get to not have to make Perception rolls to notice obvious things that aren't right in your face, etc.
Yeah I like that concept (never played Aftermath)
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Old 04-15-2020, 10:02 AM   #49
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

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Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
A battle involving 1,000 individuals on each side, still proceeds at 1 second per round, with no game time given to Oberve, Orient, or Decide in the game time. No time is given to pauses, unless rules such as exhaustion mechanics force it.
The Action Point system is a big help there. I also think maybe if we required stuff like a # of concentrate maneuvers to use skills like tactics (along with all the potentiall rerolls it optionally provides) it could also push pauses.

To add some randomness to the AP (Last Gasp) system you could appropriate the "Lulls" idea for 3e's compendium 2 (pg 81) except to "Press" during a lull should merely deplete 1 AP instead of 1 FP, so it's not such a huge gamechanger, just a quirky setting feature. It doesn't tire anyone any faster if they're taking restive actions, but will tire them faster if they avoid them.

To deplete AP faster (thus encouraging more pausing) you can also opt to ignore the free step / free pivot built into last gasp. Charging for those will require a lot more Evaluates / Do Nothings to recharge the AP.

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Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
In addition, everyone is clearly shown as perfectly aware of everything that doesn't need an explicit per roll.
Observation rolls 'round the board are too crunchy for many but I like the idea for helping to RP the knowledge limitations that happen in the fog of war, the speedy heat of battle, to keep things away from metagame tactics.

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You start with Action Points, usually equal to your HT, and then spend them for a while Doing Stuff. If you do too much stuff, too fast, you have to stop and take a breather.
One idea that just came to mind... given that "Do Nothing" allows you full defensive capability (unless of course you're stunned, then you defend at -4) what are your thoughts on something along the lines of an "All-Out Do Nothing" to give you either +2 or +4 to the usual HT+4 roll a normal Do Nothing gives, in exchange for losing defence capability? Similar to the All-Out Concentrate?

Plus maybe a middle ground like "Committed Do Nothing" where you take the defensive penalties of Committed Attack for either a +1 or +2 to the HT roll?

The idea being that the usual DN with it's "I'm keeping alert for attacks" is kinda stressful and not as restive as it would be to entirely tune out.

I know that DN's HT+4 roll has an "if uninterrupted" disclaimer meaning you wouldn't recover AP if you had to defend yourself (doesn't seem like that applies to Evaluate's HT roll though?) but you're still basically keeping an eye out for them so it might be cool if there was a reward for zoning out and being less defensive, like with sleeping.

Probably shouldn't be an option if already stunned though since you're already taking huge penalties to defence in which case you're not trading much.
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Old 04-15-2020, 11:07 AM   #50
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Default Re: Fixing round length in GURPS

Another vote for forcing perception rolls. There is a blurb in tactical shooting that outlines the basics.
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