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Old 09-01-2019, 12:46 PM   #1
Gwythaint
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New York
Default Base and other property

3e supplements (VtM for example) had some converted advantages that represented property not accounted for in cost of living, like Occult Library, and Mansion. A long gone site, Otherworld.org had an "Advanced Goblins & Grottoes" setting with a variable cost Sanctuary advantage, that had enhancement based on size, secrecy, and impenetrability, which reflected things like Supervillain or bond villain lairs, or the Batcave.
The only thing I see in 4e is the Base perk, which at status zero gives you something values like a park bench or a corner booth in a dive bar or maybe the basement of an abandoned building.
In my Northport game, I have a bunch of low point adventurers taking over a row of run-down tenaments they are trying to upgrade. I think the perk should be leveled, to reflect upgrades to the properties, which they became involved with because of the dungeon entrance in the basement.

I have seen projected values for the cost of a fully stocked tavern in DF ($100k!!!) (This was presented in DF Denizens: Swashbucklers), but I liked the 20 point cost for a castle or mansion (both of which had tremendous CoL, and an appearance based on wealth- rickety and run down vs sumptious and formidable)
Any ideas?
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Old 09-01-2019, 01:00 PM   #2
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Base and other property

Your post implies (no access to books currently) Base scales with Status. If that’s the case, I’d say “Only for determining the size of the Base” would be appropriate as a -80% Limitation on Status. So, each [+1] gives +1 Status for determining the size/resources of the Base.
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Old 09-01-2019, 01:18 PM   #3
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: Base and other property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Your post implies (no access to books currently) Base scales with Status.

Correct. Specifically, it gives access to a physical location equivalent to the housing for your Status minus 3 on the "What Cost of Living Gets You" table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
If that’s the case, I’d say “Only for determining the size of the Base” would be appropriate as a -80% Limitation on Status. So, each [+1] gives +1 Status for determining the size/resources of the Base.
I don't know exactly how I'd price it, but that seems a little bit cheaper than what he wants. That would give you the equivalent of Status 5 (a "large mansion on an estate" at TL8) for only 8 points. If you were allowed to buy more than 8 levels to compensate for the penalty, you could get the equivalent of Status 8 (an "estate the size of a small country" at TL8) for only 11 points. But I think your idea is the most logical one at its core.
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Old 09-02-2019, 02:32 AM   #4
Michele
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Udine, Italy
Default Re: Base and other property

Use Independent Income. That is leveled, and on top of that, if the party members own the buildings jointly, their monthly income from the rents (which will be a pittance given the quality of the buildings) is to be shared among them. It can easily go down to 1 point per character.

Thus they have a small additional income beyond what they earn with their adventuring and day jobs; they formally own the buildings but can't make a lot of money by just selling them (it's against the Advantage description, and you can come up with some in-game explanation such as an ancient law against that or whatever); and if they manage to improve the property, they can spend CPs on increasing their Independent Income advantage, thus getting more money per month out of it.

That other Advantage, Base, is important when you want the place not to be linked with you.
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Old 09-02-2019, 06:43 AM   #5
Gwythaint
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: New York
Default Re: Base and other property

@Michele, I was already looking at independent income! @Varyon, making the perk leveled to represent improvements is exactly what I was thinking!
In game, the local beauracracy is happy to give deeds (for points) to PC's to prevent further dilapidation of a neighborhood where there were a number of cult murders, and too many vacant homes to support local, taxable businesses. Additionally, a cluster of druids are seeking to build a park in an area where there was a street collapse (spell failure opened a temporary gate in the dungeon below it); the street collapse directly abuts the PC's properties.
Revitalization in this city is an initiative due to massive population loss from plague; the beauracracy cannot flourish without some kind of revenue from taxation, so settlement is encouraged.
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Old 09-02-2019, 07:21 AM   #6
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Base and other property

Independent Income assumes less control that would be the case in personal property. If you want an apartment building though, you can purchase it as assets with the money from your Wealth. In GURPS terms, apartment buildings probably cost (Cost of Living of Status × Number of Units × 60) and require (Cost of Living of Status × Number of Units x 0.1) for operations every month. Since Cost of Living of Status is probably 50% rent, the gross income expected is (Cost of Living of Status × Number of Units × 0.4). If you are financing, gross income likely drops by (Cost of Living of Status x Number of Units × 0.4 × Percentage Financing).

So, a 100 single unit Status 0 apartment building (assuming one Status 0 income per apartment) would have a total cost of ($600 × 100 × 60 = $3.6 million). It would generate $30,000 per month of revenue and cost $6,000 per month for operations, leaving $24,000 per month before financing costs. Financing such an endeavor would cost $19,200 per month, assuming 20% down and a 30 year loan at 4%.

So, let us say that a character with Multimillionaire 2 decides to purchase an apartment building with 75% of their assests (60% of their starting money). With $120 million down, they could make 20% down on $600 million of apartment buildings, around 15,000 Status 0 single apartments (or lesser numbers of family units). After costs and financing, they would earn $720,000 per month, a 7.2% return, though their money is locked up for 30 years in an immovable asset. Remember, these are GURPS $, so multiply by 2 for 2019 equivalents.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:18 AM   #7
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Base and other property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwythaint View Post
3e supplements (VtM for example) had some converted advantages that represented property not accounted for in cost of living, like Occult Library, and Mansion. A long gone site, Otherworld.org had an "Advanced Goblins & Grottoes" setting with a variable cost Sanctuary advantage, that had enhancement based on size, secrecy, and impenetrability, which reflected things like Supervillain or bond villain lairs, or the Batcave.
The only thing I see in 4e is the Base perk, which at status zero gives you something values like a park bench or a corner booth in a dive bar or maybe the basement of an abandoned building.
In my Northport game, I have a bunch of low point adventurers taking over a row of run-down tenaments they are trying to upgrade. I think the perk should be leveled, to reflect upgrades to the properties, which they became involved with because of the dungeon entrance in the basement.
The Base perk is not intended to be a way for characters to hold regular property. It may or may not include proper legal ownership and has an element of secrecy that complicates any commercial or regular residential use.

Quote:
I have seen projected values for the cost of a fully stocked tavern in DF ($100k!!!) (This was presented in DF Denizens: Swashbucklers), but I liked the 20 point cost for a castle or mansion (both of which had tremendous CoL, and an appearance based on wealth- rickety and run down vs sumptious and formidable)
Any ideas?
Why not role-play it? Have them own it like people do in real life.

Last edited by Donny Brook; 09-02-2019 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:31 AM   #8
Gwythaint
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
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Default Re: Base and other property

Part of the reason I used Base is because I could not find another way to replicate a gift of ownership that wasn't specifically wealth. They didn't buy it, it isn't a room in a tavern, and it also isnt an apartment building; it is a run down set of two story single family row houses ( with a total of two rooms and a loft space and a root cellar that ties in to a common basement used by the whole block (or what is left of it)that was used for traskh pickup when that service was available. (The space above the underground common area was a green patch used as kitchen gardens by the same community) The houses are in bad shape and the idea was that they could be upgraded with expenditure of points and cash; it is more in line of Signature gear: tenament block than it is Batcave. The deed is not likely to be rescinded, no one can steal the place(although it could be robbed) and while the buildings could be burned, they keep the land and underground access.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:31 AM   #9
evileeyore
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Default Re: Base and other property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Why not role-play it? Have them own it like people do in real life.
Because there are minor in game effects.

Eventually somewhere on the level "and we don't have pay weekly upkeep" combined with "great place to store our labs/libraries/smithy/etc" and the ever popular (at least with me) "no more Guild politics"*.

But right now is on the level of "Have a place to sleep" even if it isn't reducing that cost at the moment (in fact... it might be slightly higher due to repair costs, though it hasn't been long enough to see how that shakes out) and "immediate, exclusive access to the 'easiest/uppermost levels' of the megadungeon" (which is something my Character will fight to retain). I mean... that one is rather available to everyone who can get into the sewers, but our access is under our control and available anytime we want it and not under anyone else's supervision.



* Not that this has ever been a problem for me, or my Characters, but it has reared it's ugly head a few times for others.
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Old 09-02-2019, 11:02 AM   #10
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Base and other property

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwythaint View Post
Part of the reason I used Base is because I could not find another way to replicate a gift of ownership that wasn't specifically wealth. They didn't buy it, it isn't a room in a tavern, and it also isnt an apartment building; it is a run down set of two story single family row houses ( with a total of two rooms and a loft space and a root cellar that ties in to a common basement used by the whole block (or what is left of it)that was used for traskh pickup when that service was available. (The space above the underground common area was a green patch used as kitchen gardens by the same community) The houses are in bad shape and the idea was that they could be upgraded with expenditure of points and cash; it is more in line of Signature gear: tenament block than it is Batcave. The deed is not likely to be rescinded, no one can steal the place(although it could be robbed) and while the buildings could be burned, they keep the land and underground access.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like they picked the property up during play, not at character generation. So I think you need a setting-based approach rather than a rules-based approach.

If they bought or someone gave it to them, then they own it in the same sense as if they bought or someone gave them a horse (with whatever laws apply in their locale), no character points needed.

If the problem is they need more money than they have for renovations, you could let them incur the Debt disadvantage with them obtaining capital in an amount relative to the repayments the disad involves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Because there are minor in game effects. ...
Owning things in-game can cover all those in-game effects. None of them seem particularly 'meta'.

Last edited by Donny Brook; 09-02-2019 at 11:20 AM.
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