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Old 03-25-2019, 08:47 AM   #1
CarrionPeacock
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default [LT] Padded/Layered Cloth weight

Browsing some gambesons available for sale I noticed they're very light, none weighting more than 10 lbs, and after googling some more I found no evidence that gambesons and padded jacks are as heavy as shown on Low-Tech (lightest version with only 1 dr weights 9 lbs, dr 2 jumps to 18 lbs).
Why are textile armor in GURPS so heavy? Is it to balance their low cost?
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Old 03-25-2019, 09:34 AM   #2
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: [LT] Padded/Layered Cloth weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
Browsing some gambesons available for sale I noticed they're very light, none weighting more than 10 lbs, and after googling some more I found no evidence that gambesons and padded jacks are as heavy as shown on Low-Tech (lightest version with only 1 dr weights 9 lbs, dr 2 jumps to 18 lbs).
Why are textile armor in GURPS so heavy? Is it to balance their low cost?
Pretty much everything made in bulk today would count as Ordinary Clothing or Padded Cloth not "layered cloth" in GURPS Low Tech. Fabric armour meant as armour had 12-30 layers of strong linen, or an inch of cotton wool packed as densely as wood. Garments like that, scaled up to cover what GURPS calls the Torso, can easily weigh 10 pounds.

Its like how a leather jacket from a department store is DR 0 and 1-3 lbs, not any of the kinds of leather armour in a game book.

Edit: The best definitions of damage and DR in GURPS are for steel plates vs. bullets, and have trouble representing things which provide a bit of protection against muscle-powered attacks, so GURPS Low Tech has optional rules ... but its not unreasonable for most of the padded jackets for sale today to give DR 0 to DR 1* (cutting and crushing only)/0. They are lightly built from cheap materials to look good and take the sting out of blunt swords.
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Last edited by Polydamas; 03-25-2019 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: [LT] Padded/Layered Cloth weight

Also ... I think there was tension between having rules for padded armour 6 mm, 12 mm, 18 mm, and 25 mm thick, and between making its DR-to-weight ratio appropriate in comparison to metal armour. As is, I would treat Padded Cloth and Light Layered Cloth as the main options, because 30 layers of linen protecting just the Torso weigh about 3600 g (8 lbs) and an extant mid-thigh-length, long-sleeved, inch-thick padded armour would weigh 10-12 lbs if it were adult sized.

Dan Howard has said that it would help for representing muscle-powered combat if a point of DR represented about half as much resistance as it does now. As it is, there are optional rules in Low Tech to describe how someone in a heavy winter jacket, flannel shirt and longjohns can get away with things in a knife fight that someone in Bermuda shorts and a Hawaian shirt can't risk.
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:47 PM   #4
CarrionPeacock
 
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Default Re: [LT] Padded/Layered Cloth weight

So those gambesons being sold as "padded jacket class" are all just the inner padding gurps includes in the armor weights or at best padded cloth (dr 1*)? That's a bummer...
Thanks for dispeling my misunderstanding.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: [LT] Padded/Layered Cloth weight

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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
So those gambesons being sold as "padded jacket class" are all just the inner padding gurps includes in the armor weights or at best padded cloth (dr 1*)? That's a bummer...
Yep. Textile armour weighs more than an equivalent item made from metal. Leather is even worse. A buff coat weighs around 20 lbs and barely rates DR 2.

Here is an example of proper textile armour. It is about an inch thick and is as rigid as a board.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O8...rmour-unknown/

Loadouts: Low-Tech Armor would be a good book to read. It dispels a lot of historical armour myths.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/l.../lowtecharmor/

Keep in mind that clothing can be very heavy. A lot of older-styled wedding dresses can weigh 30 lbs or more.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 03-25-2019 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: [LT] Padded/Layered Cloth weight

And then there's dwarves making padded fabric quilt armour out of rock wool and woven basalt fibre.... :)
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:29 AM   #7
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: [LT] Padded/Layered Cloth weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
So those gambesons being sold as "padded jacket class" are all just the inner padding gurps includes in the armor weights or at best padded cloth (dr 1*)? That's a bummer...
Thanks for dispeling my misunderstanding.
The very best might count as DR 0 or 1 (cut)/0 Ordinary Clothing or DR 1* Padded Cloth. Most would count as Cheap and have several quirks and flaws which historical clothing did not: the ones for combat sports tend to be too bulky for plate armour to fit properly above them, its common for them to have a gap at the armpit or be too tight about the hips and thighs so they gap between the legs when the wearer walks ...
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:24 AM   #8
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Default Re: [LT] Padded/Layered Cloth weight

Arming garments are not much use unless they are custom-tailored to properly fit the wearer. You can't get one "off the shelf". The whole point of underpadding was to stop chafing, to improve the fit of the armour, and to provide a foundation to which the armour can be attached. They were never intended to provide additional protection.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 03-26-2019 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: [LT] Padded/Layered Cloth weight

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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
Why are textile armor in GURPS so heavy? Is it to balance their low cost?
It's because of the amount of textile needed for DR 1 against impaling. There's rules in LT for heavy clothing that is DR 1 vs cutting only, and that weighs less.
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