Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by safisher

Hard to know all the facts from the description. For starters, we need to know distances and the number of targets. We also need to know methods. TS, p. 13 has "sighted shooting" as All-Out Attack (Determined), which is +1. It's possible they were Braced with slings, which is +1. That betters the odds.

You are right. We don't know all the variables. I did my best guess to fill in the blanks. And while I freely admit that AoA(Determined) was probably the order of the day over MandA, I highly doubt there were using Slings as described on Page 12 of TS.

Either way, you also have the fact that this is a training environment where the cadres had practiced, knew the lay of the room and the distances involved, and so forth. Obviously, that's not real combat. Consider applying positive Task Modifiers, from +1 to +10 for those sorts of situations. I wouldn't apply this to students, mind, but to cadre, as a part of their familiarity with the range and the drill, yes this is easier. One key function of good firearms training is changing drills so that no one learns to game the system. If someone is gaming the system, they are using TDMs. I can also tell you that loud noises, such as shooting and flashbangs tend to rattle folks, and thus their perception of time may be off. Did your observer mention a shot clock?

There's some text I did not include from the book that is particularly relevant here. A separate member of the Delta Cadre setup the room. They placed the mannequins in random locations, and allowed the trainees to sit/stand where ever they wanted to. When the Assault breached the door, they likely did not know the location of the targets or the hostages. Haney would go on to recount how, every sing time they performed this during training, hostages and tangos would be in different places, and indeed the furniture would often be completely rearranged. To do it any other way would be poor training.


No, there was no shot clock mentioned. The 3 seconds might be a bit of a stretch, but I've been flashbanged in training, and even when you don't know its coming, 6 - 10 seconds is about the max before the effects start wearing off. If the assault takes 6 or more seconds, the Assaulters and Hostages are in DEEP trouble.

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Honestly the exercise seems unlikely to actually have occurred in that fashion. Most commanders aren't going to sign off on a training ORA that involves a strong likelihood of blue-on-blue; especially as a stunt to wow the trainees. My guess is that it's a lot more controlled than described.

We aren't talking about a platoon drill done by the 10th Mountain. We are talking about an Elite CT unit that must be able to execute this type of mission where hostages are present, and be able to consistently do it, every time.

For what it's worth, this is exactly how the SAS does it. They always use live rounds in their shoot-house (that's where Beckwith got the idea), and it makes for realistic training.

Granted, new trainees spend hours rehearsing, practicing, and walking through this scenario before the attempt to execute. And it's not until the develop the skills to do it consistently that they put live people in the rooms.

Why? There's no reason to assume this, and every reason to assume not to. In every CQB course I've done, we were trained to shoulder our weapons and fire aimed shots (real life "aimed"; so GURPS sighted). AoA (Determined) is much more appropriate here.

Did you serve in any Tier 1 units? Did you train with them? I've never done this either in my entire service. Then again, I was never part of Delta, DEVGRU, or the FBI Hostage Rescue Team.

Still, I have retracted my earlier assessment that the operators were using MandA, and instead that they were using AoA(Determined).

[doulos05]

You're friends were nothing special before the went to Ranger school. But I've had friends that went to Ranger school. They were most assuredly something special after they graduated. Remember, this isn't like Basic, graduation isn't basically assured unless you really screw the goose. The Rangers can afford to be picky and they are.

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

We aren't talking about a platoon drill done by the 10th Mountain. We are talking about an Elite CT unit that must be able to execute this type of mission where hostages are present, and be able to consistently do it, every time.

True, but they still would have to have done this often enough that they knew they could do it. At any rate, even with blues in the line of fire, the fact that the tangos weren't gonna shoot back has to be worth at least a +1 or +2. In fact, +1 is describe as "something an average Joe would flinch at but an adventurer would consider trivial", that's probably a workable bare-minimum definition for this situation.

For what it's worth, this is exactly how the SAS does it. They always use live rounds in their shoot-house (that's where Beckwith got the idea), and it makes for realistic training.

Granted, new trainees spend hours rehearsing, practicing, and walking through this scenario before the attempt to execute. And it's not until the develop the skills to do it consistently that they put live people in the rooms.

Yeah, and that practice, even with moving tangos, hostages, and furniture, still helps a lot. Those guys get more time during a day in the shoot house than most line soldiers probably get in a week on the firing range.

Did you serve in any Tier 1 units? Did you train with them? I've never done this either in my entire service. Then again, I was never part of Delta, DEVGRU, or the FBI Hostage Rescue Team.

Still, I have retracted my earlier assessment that the operators were using MandA, and instead that they were using AoA(Determined).

I see no reason they wouldn't use the slings as described in TS. They're elite. Between them and the SAS they practically invented the art of CQB. There's no reason to believe they wouldn't be using slings as braces years before regular units even knew that was something to include in the training.

But even without the sling, if you redo the math for AoA(Determined) and targeting the Face instead of the skull, what does that do for your target numbers? 18-2(TA/Face)-2(range)-2(ROF)+4(AoA:Determined) = 16, which is 95%, right? IDHMBWM, so I might have the AoA and the probabilities wrong.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by doulos05

You're friends were nothing special before the went to Ranger school. But I've had friends that went to Ranger school. They were most assuredly something special after they graduated. Remember, this isn't like Basic, graduation isn't basically assured unless you really screw the goose. The Rangers can afford to be picky and they are.


True, but they still would have to have done this often enough that they knew they could do it. At any rate, even with blues in the line of fire, the fact that the tangos weren't gonna shoot back has to be worth at least a +1 or +2. In fact, +1 is describe as "something an average Joe would flinch at but an adventurer would consider trivial", that's probably a workable bare-minimum definition for this situation.


Yeah, and that practice, even with moving tangos, hostages, and furniture, still helps a lot. Those guys get more time during a day in the shoot house than most line soldiers probably get in a week on the firing range.


I see no reason they wouldn't use the slings as described in TS. They're elite. Between them and the SAS they practically invented the art of CQB. There's no reason to believe they wouldn't be using slings as braces years before regular units even knew that was something to include in the training.

But even without the sling, if you redo the math for AoA(Determined) and targeting the Face instead of the skull, what does that do for your target numbers? 18-2(TA/Face)-2(range)-2(ROF)+4(AoA:Determined) = 16, which is 95%, right? IDHMBWM, so I might have the AoA and the probabilities wrong.

Ranged attacks only get +1 for AoA.

[doulos05]

Originally Posted by lexington

Ranged attacks only get +1 for AoA.

But even without the sling, if you redo the math for AoA(Determined) and targeting the Face instead of the skull, what does that do for your target numbers? 18-2(TA/Face)-2(range)-2(ROF)+1(AoA:Determined) = 13, which is 83%. Add a +1 for this being an easier environment (at least a +1) and you're at a 14, or a 90%.

[cosmicfish]

FWIW, I've read Haney's book as well as a handful of others written by people "verified" as having been in tier 1 units, and the various descriptions of CQB training seem relatively consistent with what the OP said. I cannot recall any mentions of specific times or the use of slings, but these books only ever reveal a certain level of information, so its really anyone's guess.

I would advise against Weapon Bond for most of these guys - while they most certainly seem to have favorites, they are constantly cross-training on a variety of weapons, to the extent that Weapon Bond seems unreasonable to assume as a matter of course. Some will have it, most won't.

That having been said, I think 18 is probably a reasonable minimum skill with primary arms for this group. From what I have seen, most of these units carry people at three distinct skill levels - "minimum acceptable", "average", and "expert". That is to say, they have minimum standards that they will not for safety reasons go below, but they will usually only accept that minimum from an individual in a couple of areas, and only if they are correspondingly superior in other areas. Perhaps 18 should be the minimum but 19 the norm, and 20+ reserved for the top snipers and a handful of other aces in the unit.

Exact details don't really matter THAT much for the purposes of the game, but it would be worthwhile to try to put whatever scores you decide on within the context of the opposition and other forces. If 18+ is Tier 1, what skill levels do you have for Tier 2 units like Special Forces and SEALs, and units "below" those? It is probably not reasonable to place an expectation of skill 18 for DEVGRU if SEAL operators are only expected to have skill 14.

[Icelander]

For what it's worth, when I've tried to model the training of SAS CRW, Delta and Navy SEALS DEVGRU, skill levels of 18 and several relevant techniques maximised have been called for in order to match reported feats.

I don't have a problem with this. That's just how high their Guns skill needs to be while they are at peak operational pitch. Rotate them to other duties and they might dip back down to skill 15-17 within a couple of years, if they don't get the constant realistic training. But on the face of it, if anyone rates massive Guns skill, it's going to be the teams of exceptional individuals who daily spend a very considerable amount of resources to train in situations as close to operational reality as possible.

[TheOneRonin]

Thanks for the input, everyone. With some of the rules adjustments based on what I've read, it seems like Guns 18 or 19 is not only appropriate for a Delta Assaulter, but indeed capable of performing those feats that I've read about.

I'll try to respond to everyone's individual posts this afternoon, but I appreciate the quality of feedback I've gotten so far. These are, by far, the best RPG forums that I've frequented.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

To do it any other way would be poor training.

It's still a training environment, with no one shooting back. It's also something that they've done over and over. That's the definition of training, yes, but also it's likely you still get positive TDMs. Maybe the moving around of targets and hostages helps (and if time pressure and elevated heart rate are included) you suppress them, but eventually this stuff become old hat. The best thing about training today is force on force training with simunitions and firearms simulator. Which, I am sure, these guys use in spades. This too can be gamed. Of course, these guys will have Battle Drill, and get some small benefit from that, too.

No, there was no shot clock mentioned. The 3 seconds might be a bit of a stretch, but I've been flashbanged in training, and even when you don't know its coming, 6 - 10 seconds is about the max before the effects start wearing off.

Sure, but this is the difference between 3 and 6 seconds. Assuming eight targets and four instructors, that's the difference between:

1. Move and Attack/CQB/Ranged Rapid Strike (Quick-Shot)/(TA/Vitals & Head)
2. Move and Attack/CQB/Ranged Rapid Strike (Quick-Shot)/(TA/Vitals & Head)
3. Move

and

1. STEP/AIM
2. AOA (Determined): Vitals
3. AOA (Determined): Head
4. STEP/AIM
5. AOA (Determined): Vitals
6. AOA (Determined): Head

Or whatever. Big difference, obviously.

[dcarson]

Read somewhere that SEALs ammo budget for training is 30-50 times that of normal units. They do a lot of practice and the it is needed to keep the skills at the level they have them.