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Old 08-13-2013, 09:38 PM   #1
Cheomesh
 
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Default My Spec Ops template

Hello! I've been alluding to doing a game involving my players as Spec Ops types. I am in the middle of creating a number of documents that serve as pre-game handouts for setting briefing and character creation.

This is my document for players who are going to be Special Operations soldiers, as opposed to mages:

Special Operative Handout

Do you think I've covered all the bases between the basic template, specialization packages and lenses?

What would you suggest from a Realism / Simulationism POV? What about from a gameplay one? Anything you'd like to add in general, or is it good to go?

All of the equipment suggestions are just that - suggestions to give them an idea of what the "norm" is for combat gear. The rest - radios, food, backpacks, etc - will come later. I use real world names so looking them up is easier. This is a fictional world, though, so almost anything "goes".

Thanks again!

M.
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:51 PM   #2
Pragmatic
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

Have you checked out this: GURPS Special Ops?

Or this: GURPS SEALs in Vietnam?

There might even be references to Spec Ops in GURPS Action, though I'm not that familiar with that series.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:04 PM   #3
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

The Techniques might benefit from a clarification of what skills they're based off. Depending on how much GURPS experience your players have.

Also I don't think it's sufficiently clear what counts as a specialization and what doesn't, i.e. for NCOs.
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Old 08-14-2013, 07:36 AM   #4
Cheomesh
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pragmatic View Post
Have you checked out this: GURPS Special Ops?

Or this: GURPS SEALs in Vietnam?

There might even be references to Spec Ops in GURPS Action, though I'm not that familiar with that series.
I have; I actually referenced the latter in the document.

Quote:
The Techniques might benefit from a clarification of what skills they're based off. Depending on how much GURPS experience your players have.

Also I don't think it's sufficiently clear what counts as a specialization and what doesn't, i.e. for NCOs.
Thanks, I'll make some edits in a bit.

M.
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Old 08-14-2013, 08:34 AM   #5
cosmicfish
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

Sorry if this gets long, I have looked into this for a while and am currently filling some hours editing technical papers so I may get wordy.

Page 2:
Officer and NCO are not interchangeable - realistically, structure and membership is pretty rigid, for several reasons. Decide if the team is led by an officer or an NCO.

The training is very loose. In a realistic unit, there would be a set of skills and training each team would need. As an example, an 8-man SEAL boat crew WILL have 6 specific NCO assignments, and at least one sniper and medic. Simply put, specializations are important and those skills need to be rehearsed in training, not just picked up on the moment.

Pages 4-5:
Armoury is probably not needed for all soldiers, especially not at the 2 point level. Remember that Guns includes basic maintenance and addressing typical field issues, while Armoury is more about more specialized tasks that occur in a shop.

Guns (Pistol) is not optional in special operations units. It is actually the only weapon that every single person will carry.

Why the divide between "Primary" and "Secondary" skills? It makes it harder to see what is going on.

There is no sense in spending 5 points on HALO/HAHO but only 1 point on the core Parachuting skill. 4/2 makes immediately more sense, and unless they are specialists I would probably just go 2/2.

Bicycling?

I disagree with some of your point assignments, but nothing is drastically off from what I would do.

Page 6:
The packages seem a little muddled - some are special-ops skill packages, others seem more like incidental ratings earned prior to joining the team. The latter may not be relevant depending on your unit type.

In special ops units, the role of machinegunner focuses on man-portable. There should be a point in Gunner, and the rest should focus on the Guns (LMG). No such unit would send someone into combat with such a large, cumbersome, expensive, ammunition-sucking weapon who was not well-trained in it.

Information Systems Technician appears to cost 3 points, not 4 as listed. And why does this exist?

Radioman should have Electronics Repair.

Photographer has too many points and is not normally a separate skill in special ops. Rather, it is a component of sniper training.

I would comment on Electronics Technician, but I am not sure what you are going for...

Patrol Medic needs some kind of specialization on Surgery. As it is, he can perform a kidney transplant. I would also put more points in First Aid and less in Surgery (Trauma).

Page 7:
Officers need Research and Writing?

Page 10:
No military unit would seriously take the IMI .50. The presence of this pistol is off unless you are hunting something seriously supernatural, in which case there should be some other modifications to the document.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:29 AM   #6
lexington
 
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I'd be surprised if anyone in a Spec Ops unit lacked Combat Reflexes
If society already values swords as martial weapons then I think Shortsword or Knife would be emphasized over unarmed striking skills.
Unless they are controlling a position I don't think Spec Ops uses .50 caliber weapons at all.
I would make a package that emphasizes social skills like Teaching, Diplomacy, and Public Speaking. Special operations units have been used to create resistance movements.
The Deagle is absolutely ridiculous in a realistic game. Consider that it holds less than half as many rounds as the Five-seveN and can't be fitted with a suppressor. They're much better off training up TA/Pistol-Vitals and shooting twice if they need to.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:45 AM   #7
cosmicfish
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
I'd be surprised if anyone in a Spec Ops unit lacked Combat Reflexes
Canonically in both 3E and 4E, Combat Reflexes is common in such units but not universal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
If society already values swords as martial weapons then I think Shortsword or Knife would be emphasized over unarmed striking skills.
In fairness, he did note Shortsword as recommended for officers as a societal issue, but he did not indicate that they were serious weapons of war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
Unless they are controlling a position I don't think Spec Ops uses .50 caliber weapons at all.
Very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
I would make a package that emphasizes social skills like Teaching, Diplomacy, and Public Speaking. Special operations units have been used to create resistance movements.
Really depends on the unit - SF makes a HUGE deal of this, SEALs barely do. Still, as an optional package not a bad idea, although an interested player could certainly just take the skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
The Deagle is absolutely ridiculous in a realistic game. Consider that it holds less than half as many rounds as the Five-seveN and can't be fitted with a suppressor. They're much better off training up TA/Pistol-Vitals and shooting twice if they need to.
Amen.
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:33 PM   #8
Cheomesh
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

Got a couple high quality answers here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Sorry if this gets long, I have looked into this for a while and am currently filling some hours editing technical papers so I may get wordy.
That's ok, I'm a rambler. The more input the better, and perhaps it'll enlighten me on something else beyond just the subject at hand!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Page 2:
Officer and NCO are not interchangeable - realistically, structure and membership is pretty rigid, for several reasons. Decide if the team is led by an officer or an NCO.
I get that in real life. What I was shooting for (but did not state explicitly) was that the team can be currently lead by an NCO due to the officer being dead (field replacement) or because the players are a team split off from another (thusly the officer is elsewhere). Is this something that would be detrimental?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
The training is very loose. In a realistic unit, there would be a set of skills and training each team would need. As an example, an 8-man SEAL boat crew WILL have 6 specific NCO assignments, and at least one sniper and medic. Simply put, specializations are important and those skills need to be rehearsed in training, not just picked up on the moment.
This is a good point. I was originally going to make a hard-and-fast roster for the different roles (currently only Mage and "Leader" is hard and fast), but I was concerned it would step on toes too much. The basic template covers all the roles a squad requires, so fulfilling those "basic required" roles is really just a matter of picking up the right equipment. If it were just writing or even if they were standard grunts I'd go for a directly lifted organization table, but in this case I'm kind of willing to fudge it a bit so everyone can play the kind of soldier they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Pages 4-5:
Armoury is probably not needed for all soldiers, especially not at the 2 point level. Remember that Guns includes basic maintenance and addressing typical field issues, while Armoury is more about more specialized tasks that occur in a shop.
That was part of the original SEAL template. I was also kind of sketchy about it, thinking maybe I should drop it for a single point in like, primitive weapon making (survival school), but I wasn't sure. Do you think that one should certainly get the axe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Guns (Pistol) is not optional in special operations units. It is actually the only weapon that every single person will carry.
Yes, and I was going to make it mandatory. However, I think you get a -2 default on the thing from Rifle, so even if you don't take a point in it, you're probably still pretty good with a pistol regardless. I think anyone who puts a point into it is just that much better. Is this a bad way of thinking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Why the divide between "Primary" and "Secondary" skills? It makes it harder to see what is going on.
OCD. I didn't like how the list was split between two pages. I intend to fill that white space with some explanation on why Primary skills are what they are, or maybe a picture. I could try a two column approach, though, if you think it would look better. You have experience in writing technical papers, and I'm up for gleaning from your experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
There is no sense in spending 5 points on HALO/HAHO but only 1 point on the core Parachuting skill. 4/2 makes immediately more sense, and unless they are specialists I would probably just go 2/2.
Good point. To be honest I don't know why HALO/HAHO even has such a giant default gap. I've never been diving but I can't imagine HALO is -that- much more difficult than just regular jumping. They are para-certified, though, so more points in the core skill's a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Bicycling?
I like bikes :D I had an extra point laying about when I made the cuts from the SEAL template and did some skill additions. I was originally looking at dropping it in another 1 point skill and raising it a level, but then I remembered this thing: Montague Paratrooper Folding Bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
I disagree with some of your point assignments, but nothing is drastically off from what I would do.
Do tell. Maybe it'll change my thinking. Remember though that a bulk of this is lifted directly from SEALs in Vietnam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Page 6:
The packages seem a little muddled - some are special-ops skill packages, others seem more like incidental ratings earned prior to joining the team. The latter may not be relevant depending on your unit type.
[/quote]

They are ripped right out of the Ratings from SEALs. I intended to make them easily recognizable add-on packages for guys who wanted to fulfill a certain role (like MG, Anti-tank, radio guy) but be noticeably better than if he had just taken the base template's skills in that role. Everyone in the squad can basically do everything, but if you wanted to be better at that role, you'd take the add on. Make sense? Or am I going about that the wrong way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
In special ops units, the role of machinegunner focuses on man-portable. There should be a point in Gunner, and the rest should focus on the Guns (LMG). No such unit would send someone into combat with such a large, cumbersome, expensive, ammunition-sucking weapon who was not well-trained in it.
Absolutely true. I'm hiding behind Rule of Cool with the bigger MG's. I think the 7.62GPMG that the Army/Marines use is under Gunner, rather than LMG, though. I'm pretty sure Special Forces (i.e. Green Berets) use it, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Information Systems Technician appears to cost 3 points, not 4 as listed. And why does this exist?
I'll double check the points cost. It exists for someone who wants to be the computer hacker type. Might come up in a mission, to deactivate security, steal info, etc. Probably a little out of the bounds of real life GB's, maybe, but I am not sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Radioman should have Electronics Repair.
Why's that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Photographer has too many points and is not normally a separate skill in special ops. Rather, it is a component of sniper training.
So just one point then? I was thinking it would be for Recon missions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
I would comment on Electronics Technician, but I am not sure what you are going for...
Guy who can fix some electronic goods / disable electronic goods / deploy electronic goods. I was thinking about making Operation the main skill, which gives you a better default down to Repair than the other way around ... which makes no sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Patrol Medic needs some kind of specialization on Surgery. As it is, he can perform a kidney transplant. I would also put more points in First Aid and less in Surgery (Trauma).
Typo. Good catch! I'll also adjust the points. Surgery plays in to more realistic injury roles. It works against some of the results of critical wounds and whatnot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Page 7:
Officers need Research and Writing?
It's part of the SEALs Officer lens. I cut a lot of stuff out, but I still don't feel good about the lens. Should it just be focusing on improving skills? I think the Research is to find out stuff about the op area, and Writing to do requisitions and After Actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Page 10:
No military unit would seriously take the IMI .50. The presence of this pistol is off unless you are hunting something seriously supernatural, in which case there should be some other modifications to the document.
Rule of Cool :D Well, you're probably right. Should I reimplemented the Beretta 9mm? I was mostly just giving some options for cool stuff.

Continued below!
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Old 08-15-2013, 12:34 PM   #9
Cheomesh
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
I'd be surprised if anyone in a Spec Ops unit lacked Combat Reflexes
I was also wondering why that was not innate to the SEAL. Any idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
If society already values swords as martial weapons then I think Shortsword or Knife would be emphasized over unarmed striking skills.
I had originally made Shortsword (fighting with the machete or even a cutlass) the norm for the MA style. This is to give them some HTH options should they ever run low on ammo / get separated from their guns and find themselves having to heroically fight their way through goons or something. I have a tendency to stick swords / other close combat elements into post-gun settings, because they're neat. I withdrew it because I figured it would look too silly, though. Then again, this is a setting where humanity is ruled by a sorcerer elite...so maybe it would actually still be pretty cool?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
Unless they are controlling a position I don't think Spec Ops uses .50 caliber weapons at all.
Rule of cool. Probably not a bad thing to remove them, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
I would make a package that emphasizes social skills like Teaching, Diplomacy, and Public Speaking. Special operations units have been used to create resistance movements.
Originally the linguist was going to have that but I figured maybe it wouldn't be useful. You make a good point, though. Do you think it should be a separate thing from the Linguist (i.e. a template that features a language PLUS the speaking skill) or should just be one with the Linguist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lexington View Post
The Deagle is absolutely ridiculous in a realistic game. Consider that it holds less than half as many rounds as the Five-seveN and can't be fitted with a suppressor. They're much better off training up TA/Pistol-Vitals and shooting twice if they need to.
Yeah, that's true. Rule of cool strikes again. As above, I think I might remove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Canonically in both 3E and 4E, Combat Reflexes is common in such units but not universal.
Which is weird to me. Same with high pain threshold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
In fairness, he did note Shortsword as recommended for officers as a societal issue, but he did not indicate that they were serious weapons of war.
Sabre, actually, and smallsword. The roots of this setting (light as it is) lie in several older projects wherein the Mages who rule over us were more like 17th/18th/19th century social elites, where they were very cultural and settle disputes with fencing bouts and the like. Which...is a little weird considering they have MAGIC, but maybe it's a principal thing. I just like the idea of the gentleman battlewizard defending his honour with a blade, for some reason.

Hell, originally a lot of this took place in space, where the players were Star Marines for a magical faction and a lot of action was old-school boarding action ship to ship. Kind of a carry over.

Thanks for all your input guys! Looking forward to your rebuttals!

M.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:14 PM   #10
lexington
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

If they're using machete's it should be Shortsword rather than Smallsword, since Smallsword is for thrusting weapons.

I'd suggest a basic combat skills package based on yours along these lines:

Shortsword DX+0 [2]
Brawling DX+0 [1]
Judo DX-1 [2]
Guns (Rifle) DX+2 [4]
Guns (Pistol) DX+2 [3]
TA (Pistol/Vitals) DX+1 [3]

In a melee the machete is simply better than your fists if you're going for a kill. If an operator is disarmed their training focuses more on controlling the opponent with grappling and removing themself from the melee than beating the enemy with striking power. The rifle is their primary weapon (powerful, accurate, long ranged) and the pistol is an important back up, however when using it they're trained to shoot for effect.

Operators who want to focus more on the melee side should also consider training to strike for effect. Training up TA(Brawling Punch/Face) is an effective fight ender, on a hit the target must roll HT-5 or drop. Use the time to get a real weapon.

I imagine a lot of these spec ops guys would spend plenty of time training with their rifles. There should be an Rifleman package that bumps Guns (Rifle) to 16. The Marksman package can be differentiated by adding Observation and being a prereq to be given a SCAR-H-SV.
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