Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-22-2018, 03:17 AM   #181
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
And all this ties in with "the problem with magic" in GURPS in that it's your expectation of a realistic economy that's giving you trouble, not anything in the game. The AD&D rules specifically point out how unrealistic the hyperinflation of the game is, but it's set up that way because it's no fun to slay a dragon and get a few measly rings of hacksilver out of the venture. GURPS isn't set up just to do AD&D-style adventuring, but that's one of the genres it allows you to do. You have to prune away that sort of thing to get at the bits you want.
Well the actual problem that I started the topic with is that there's no underlying rules in Magic, no (apparent) worked rules for how everything works, that that problem does rear it's head here. and given that GURPS tends to steer away from hack 'n' slash normally expecting things to be worked not for a commercial magic setting isn't unreasonable (Technomancer says 'Hi')

For the ever popular Continual Light example I've just crunched the numbers and it doesn't look good. Continual Light at it's highest power costs 6 energy to cast and thus $6 to have cast and lasts a week on average, so you'll need 4 castings for $24 a month, and that's only if you only need one light source, two is probably more likely for all but the poorest of people, so that's $48. Now the calculations are normally for TL4 and as Status -1, which seems a good ballpark for most people in that sort of era, is an income of $400, that means these lights are costing you 12% of your total income and that percentage doesn't change as TL increases and income increases.
scc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 05:44 AM   #182
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
That's not how it works in practice. "Monty Haul" means giving out treasure incommensurate with the challenge of getting it. Those training costs get higher because you are gaining a level, and by definition gaining a level means you're capable of acquiring more treasure. It's not a death-spiral; it's keeping up with the Joneses.
You missed the point. It wasn't that the amount kept increasing or that were maintenance and training costs but that the base costs were off the wall stark raving bonkers insane.

In fact "Only Train When You Gain" Dragon #97 acknowledged that this one rule was more responsible for campaigns going Monty Haul then anything else. Heck, "History of a game that failed" Dragon #99 acknowledged that many predesigned modules encouraged Monty Haulism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
And all this ties in with "the problem with magic" in GURPS in that it's your expectation of a realistic economy that's giving you trouble, not anything in the game. The AD&D rules specifically point out how unrealistic the hyperinflation of the game is, but it's set up that way because it's no fun to slay a dragon and get a few measly rings of hacksilver out of the venture.
Dragons per the the example of The Hobbit should be rare creatures sitting on a horde gathered or stolen not something that a 1st level character bumps into on the street.

Sure DMG 90 talks about hypterinflation but when you look at the amount of wealth the low level critters drop it just doesn't make sense for there to be hypterinflation in the first place.

Last edited by maximara; 07-22-2018 at 08:02 AM.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 05:56 AM   #183
Astromancer
 
Astromancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Virginia
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
Well the actual problem that I started the topic with is that there's no underlying rules in Magic, no (apparent) worked rules for how everything works, that that problem does rear it's head here. and given that GURPS tends to steer away from hack 'n' slash normally expecting things to be worked not for a commercial magic setting isn't unreasonable (Technomancer says 'Hi')
Underlying rules of magic would seriously define/limit the types of worlds you can play. The G in GURPS stands for generic. But if you want underlying rules of magic, why not try GURPS: Thaumatology? That's what that book is for.

Quote:
For the ever popular Continual Light example I've just crunched the numbers and it doesn't look good. Continual Light at it's highest power costs 6 energy to cast and thus $6 to have cast and lasts a week on average, so you'll need 4 castings for $24 a month, and that's only if you only need one light source, two is probably more likely for all but the poorest of people, so that's $48. Now the calculations are normally for TL4 and as Status -1, which seems a good ballpark for most people in that sort of era, is an income of $400, that means these lights are costing you 12% of your total income and that percentage doesn't change as TL increases and income increases.
Actually, at higher tech levels, people would invest in the enchantment form of this spell. The wealthy would have lockets that doubled as lamps. Even the poor would eventually be able to afford simple enchanted lamps.
__________________
Per Ardua Per Astra!


Ancora Imparo
Astromancer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 12:45 PM   #184
edk926
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Thus bring back some use for enchanters again.
edk926 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 03:27 PM   #185
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
Underlying rules of magic would seriously define/limit the types of worlds you can play. The G in GURPS stands for generic. But if you want underlying rules of magic, why not try GURPS: Thaumatology? That's what that book is for.
I don't really view something like Magic being a generic thing, it would be like saying any worldbook or even genre book is a generic thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
Actually, at higher tech levels, people would invest in the enchantment form of this spell. The wealthy would have lockets that doubled as lamps. Even the poor would eventually be able to afford simple enchanted lamps.
Two problems: The cost doesn't go down as TL gets higher, it will at least keep pace with income, if not get higher and secondly you have to find people prepared to spend their lives making them.

Last edited by scc; 07-22-2018 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Typo
scc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 06:50 PM   #186
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
Underlying rules of magic would seriously define/limit the types of worlds you can play. The G in GURPS stands for generic. But if you want underlying rules of magic, why not try GURPS: Thaumatology? That's what that book is for.
Without rules you just have a chaotic mess.

Odds are at least one of the 32 "laws" of Magic in Authentic Thaumaturgy will be functioning.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 07:05 PM   #187
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
Underlying rules of magic would seriously define/limit the types of worlds you can play.
Underlying rules for all systems of magic would do that. Underlying rules for one specific magic system helps with worldbuilding.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2018, 10:03 PM   #188
scc
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Underlying rules for all systems of magic would do that. Underlying rules for one specific magic system helps with worldbuilding.
I might further to say that underlying rules for any provided magic system prevent the magic system from conflicting with any world built to go along with it.
scc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2018, 08:32 PM   #189
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Underlying rules for all systems of magic would do that. Underlying rules for one specific magic system helps with worldbuilding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scc View Post
I might further to say that underlying rules for any provided magic system prevent the magic system from conflicting with any world built to go along with it.
There are other factors regarding magic that go into world building.

Is the magic low or high? Do both types exist? Is the world high or low fantasy?

Dozens of questions could be asked even before you got to the rules of magic itself.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2018, 06:17 AM   #190
Donny Brook
 
Donny Brook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Snoopy's basement
Default Re: The Problem With Magic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom H. View Post
Interesting. However, if even beggars could make a good living, the ramifications would still shift the economics to a new state.

More and more it seems to me in our modern society of plenty that economics is much less about productivity and wealth and more about creating hierarchies and control. Even if everyone were highly skilled in the latest demanding technologies, there is a strong need to keep the masses "down" so as to ensure the power of the insecure elites, for better or worse.
When material needs become fully satisfied, the remaining thing of value is relative social position. The only scarcity is the power to impress or command other minds.
Donny Brook is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lend vitality

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.