Horses as NPCs (of sorts)

[hal]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'd probably replace Acrobatics (Horse) with Jumping, which is pretty much the thing they'd use it for (although perhaps they could use it in place of DX when Pushing the Envelope, such as having a shorter turn radius when using High Speed Movement). Fighting, Bucking, and Sumo Wrestling can probably all be replaced by Brawling (possibly with the Clinch Perk). For some of the other bits, you may want to check out Icelander's system for Medieval horses in 4e, which covers things like Dressage, Combat Training, etc.

If I were to go the route of using Brawling, I run into the issue of "Striking damage". Hooves striking a person would be brawling. Ramming a horse with its shoulder and trying to knock it over would be more along the lines of Sumo Wrestling aka charging or slamming. But there are things that could maybe be better served with "techniques" that are based off a similar skill. So Dressage might be a baseline skill, with specifics within Dressage being techniques of Dressage+0, Dressage-1, Dressage-2 etc.

So, what I'm after here is something with a bit more of a "Bite" than what currently exists. Something that uses Animal Handling in a significant fashion and will produce reasonable results (even if not entirely 100% realistic - I'll settle for 99%. Ok ok - I'll settel for 70%!).

;)

[hal]

Originally Posted by Varyon

If going to that level, I'd be inclined to say the stated 360 days of training corresponds to 360 days of training with a skill 12 handler. Skill 12 has a success rate of 160/216, or 20/27 (74.074%), which corresponds to 266.67 successes. So, a skill 10 handler would need 533.33 days, while one with skill 16+ would need need only ~271.70 days. That assumes critical results (for a skill 12 handler, 360 attempts would on average result in 6.67 Critical Successes and 6.67 Critical Failures, in addition to the 260 Successes and 86.67 Failures) don't get special treatment, and also that the handler doesn't get any relevant modifiers (such as from having assistants).

Without closely checking the math, that sounds about what I was angling towards.

If 360 days of training with 74% chance of success is the goal, the goal for successful training is 266 successes. If we're using an expert trainer, or someone with Animal empathy and skills - then you're right, it should take less time.

Ironically enough, an IQ 4 horse takes HALF the time to train than an IQ 3 horse. That imposes an interesting wrinkle in all of this math.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by hal

If I were to go the route of using Brawling, I run into the issue of "Striking damage". Hooves striking a person would be brawling. Ramming a horse with its shoulder and trying to knock it over would be more along the lines of Sumo Wrestling aka charging or slamming. But there are things that could maybe be better served with "techniques" that are based off a similar skill. So Dressage might be a baseline skill, with specifics within Dressage being techniques of Dressage+0, Dressage-1, Dressage-2 etc.

Shoves and Slams can both use Brawling just fine (although Sumo Wrestling gives a better damage bonus IIRC). I think Dressage corresponds more closely to the Mount skill than anything else - although some of the fancy moves there could certainly involve Techniques.

Originally Posted by hal

Ironically enough, an IQ 4 horse takes HALF the time to train than an IQ 3 horse. That imposes an interesting wrinkle in all of this math.

Up to you how to handle this. If horses are only going to be IQ 3 or 4, you can just keep it as-is (so an IQ 4 horse only requires 133 successes). If you want to extend this, you'll need to decide how you want the pattern to work. Doubling or halving time for +1 or -1 IQ might work, or you could follow a different pattern.

[Plane]

The omission of short lifespan from the animal templates might be a 3e relic of certain supplements where they wouldn't bother with stuff like that (or immortality) for some NPCs?

[Gigermann]

Aces & Eights published a nice Excel sheet for generating random horse traits, available here: https://www.kenzerco.com/aces_n_eights/downloads.html

[hal]

Originally Posted by Plane

The omission of short lifespan from the animal templates might be a 3e relic of certain supplements where they wouldn't bother with stuff like that (or immortality) for some NPCs?

There are a lot of "disadvantages" built into monster templates that I would never consider including in them - but hey, that seems to be the way the cookie crumbles. But agreed, some things really shouldn't be included in the templates if they have no real bearing on the story at that precise moment in time. Not being able to talk for instance, doesn't seem to be worth including as an attribute in an animal because they're not expected to talk! ;)

[hal]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

Aces & Eights published a nice Excel sheet for generating random horse traits, available here: https://www.kenzerco.com/aces_n_eights/downloads.html

Shhhhhh - you're not supposed to tell the world at large my sources.

**teasing grin**

I'm currently looking into how to adapt the rules from A&8 for use with GURPS, be it the trial rules, the prospecting rules, or even the horses rules (for determining the overall value).

Glad to see that others use A&8 for reference where it comes to a GURPS OLD WEST campaign.

[Pursuivant]

To make a bad pun, "The Noble Steed" is very long in the tooth although it's based on good research.

Since you're mining GURPS 3E resources, it's worth taking a look at GURPS 3E Bestiary 3E for more details on animal companions.

For GURPS 4E I believe that some of the books in the Dungeon Fantasy series have extensive templates for animal companions.

If you really want to port over skills from Noble Steed, consider making any sort of training which takes less than ~200 hours into a Technique, based on DX, HT, or Per to give the animal decent skill levels.

The sort of training which takes years and essentially defines a highly-trained animal's reason for existence should count as a skill. In GURPS 4E, many of them can count as Easy or Average Professional Skills, but again based on DX, HT, or Per rather than IQ.

Acrobatics - might be better represented by Jumping or Mount.
AK - critical for wild horses.
Bucking - Technique based on Jumping or Mount.
Fighting - Brawling
Escape - Possibly better represented by Forced Entry for brute force escape techniques. Having lips which serve as a crude manipulator, but better than just teeth, is a Perk.
Leadership - probably no better than default except for experienced herd leaders.
Running - default skill except for race horses. Wild horses, draft and trail horses are more likely to have Hiking skill.
Swimming - default skill unless specifically trained.
Wrestling - better represented by Sumo Wrestling.

Add Intimidation to the list, particularly for stallions and warhorses.

Airs Above Ground = Technique based on Sport (Dressage)
At Liberty = Technique based on Mount.
Combat Training = ditto.
Survival = critical for wild horses.
Cutting = Technique based on Professional Skill (Cow Pony) or Sumo Wrestling.
Dressage = Sport (Dressage)
Endurance under Saddle = Hiking
High School = Sport (Dressage)
In Hand = Technique based on Mount
In Harness = PS (Draft Horse)
Jumping = default skill only unless trained, but many horses will have a level of Super Jump. (Possibly allow a 5 point half level of SJ which boosts jumping distance by +n x 0.5, equivalent to Enhanced Move)
Polo = Sport (Polo)
Roping = Technique based on PS (Cow Pony)
Steeplechasing = Sport (Steeplechase)
Tricks = Perks
Under Pack = PS (Pack Horse)
Under Saddle = Mount

Per GURPS 3E Bestiary, skilled animal moochers might have the equivalent of Panhandling skill.

[Donny Brook]

I think a case could be made that horses might be capable of learning at least horse-versions of these skills which I don't think have been mentioned yet:

-animal handling
-survival
-body language
-dancing
-group performance
--immoveable stance
-intimidation
-'pulling'
--light walk
-weathersense
-performance
-stealth
-teamster

On a different note, I have found it very difficult to use the Ally rules for any sort of realistic animal because they start with serious character point deficiencies to reach even 25% of many PCs starting value, and the paced growth in point value soon makes them exceed any reasonable degree of capability.

[Black Leviathan]

I throw the Special Rapport advantage into a lot of animal handler templates to make animal allies that have a greater understanding with the character. I generally NPC these animals has having an Extra IQ point and depending on how cinematic the game is they may have lassie-like capabilities, nothing too campy. I would think if your western game has enough flexibility for a horse to be aware when it's owner is in danger and come bolting in to let them grab the saddle horn and be whisked out of the fray. Maybe the horses ordinary perception would spot a risk and pitch a fit to warn their owner. Maybe the horse understands your intent enough to play cool while you slowly lure the cocky bandito into the pain zone before bucking that badguy with a ST 24 all-out-for-damage kick to his rear hex. Feasibly if you get trapped in a burning saloon the horse could barge through the burning debris to make an escape path. The horse will probably not be better at math than the character though. This kind of animal NPC also inevitably has a lot of personality and gets jealous of attention shown to others, possibly plays pranks on you and your friends or steals apples out of your jacket pocket.

I also give a flat +5 to fright checks to overcome fear to save your partner for any Special Rapport, animals not withstanding.