Rules Help

[JCD]

I am posting this thread in an attempt to give us one stop shopping for Rules Help. Essentially, if you have a Rules question which hasn't been addressed in the FAQ, the Errata or a Supplement then you post it here to get several of the vetrans' interpretations. This isn't offical by any means and is not just for soliciting information from the books; i.e. it's perfectly valid to reference a page number.


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I'll go first. I have the core rule book and I have Superiors. The Dark Desire attunement by Andrealphus has always given me trouble.

Dark Desire
This power costs 1 Essence, and allows a demon to
imprint any desire upon a person’s psyche. The victim
may make a Will roll to resist his urges, but if he fails,
he’ll have no goal except to satisfy his desire, for a number
of hours equal to the demon’s total Forces.

(I hope I am not breaking any rules by posting the relevant information [looks furitively at the Archdean of Lines in her Fortress of Solitude])

Now (trying very hard to keep this PG), Sonia meets Mr. Prim. She puts a Dark Desire on him to have someone spread quince jam on his chest and lick it off.

Does this mean Mr. Prim has to spent Total Force hours LOOKING for someone to satisfy that particular kink and once he finds that person, he is free; or does that mean he'd best buy a case, because he'll have to spend Total Force hours indulging himself. (Think of the chaffing)

I would tend to the former, but I'm not sure.

(I will ignore one of my standard complaints about IN in them being less then clear occasionally of Resist rolls vs Negation rolls)

[Orlin]

I have a couple.

When looking over Discord in the Core Guide (p. 85), how does one determine the total character point bonus? I noticed that Discord comes in levels, but many forms of discord cites a separate bonus per level. If the bonus is not cited, are we supposed to assume that Discord is 1 point per level?

While reading over the Alternate Rules section of the Game Master's Guide, under Optional Rules and Combat Variants, there is a section labeled Reduced Target Numbers (p.120); it explains that in hand to hand combat, characters add Corporeal Forces + Strength + Skill, and suggests removing Forces from the equation. This section then goes on to explain that a character with Large Weapon/4, Strength/7 and 4 Corporeal Forces would have a TN of 15, and "with this rule, the TN would be reduced to 11."

Are all characters supposed to add their relevant Forces to all skill check TN's, or just combat skills, or was this a fluke? I checked it against the Core Guide, which says that hand to hand attacks are rolled using Corporeal Forces + Strength, but makes no mention of the Fighting skill. In the GMG, it continues to suggest that by removing Forces from the equation, a GM would have to recalculate all defaults. This just throws me into more confusion, because I was under the impression that normal skill checks didn't add Forces to the equation under any circumstances...

[Archangel Beth]

Yeah, Resist vs. Negation has always been a teeny bit tricky.

Dark Desire:
I would rule that it's the latter, personally. Have the accomplice lick slowly, because that's going to be a lot of spreading and licking. (Of course, if you do it right... It could take aaaallll niiiiiight. *waggles eyebrows*)

Forces + Attribute + Skill:
That's p. 62 (of the PDF, anyway), under Corporeal Combat, second paragraph. The PDF also has that data on p. 75, under Fighting. (If you're working from a deadtrees copy and it's not clear from the errata, then please double-ping me to check into this further. O:> )

Discord:
You want p. 49 of the core rules, under the Discord header, 3rd paragraph.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Orlin

I have a couple.

When looking over Discord in the Core Guide (p. 85), how does one determine the total character point bonus? I noticed that Discord comes in levels, but many forms of discord cites a separate bonus per level. If the bonus is not cited, are we supposed to assume that Discord is 1 point per level?

While reading over the Alternate Rules section of the Game Master's Guide, under Optional Rules and Combat Variants, there is a section labeled Reduced Target Numbers (p.120); it explains that in hand to hand combat, characters add Corporeal Forces + Strength + Skill, and suggests removing Forces from the equation. This section then goes on to explain that a character with Large Weapon/4, Strength/7 and 4 Corporeal Forces would have a TN of 15, and "with this rule, the TN would be reduced to 11."

Are all characters supposed to add their relevant Forces to all skill check TN's, or just combat skills, or was this a fluke? I checked it against the Core Guide, which says that hand to hand attacks are rolled using Corporeal Forces + Strength, but makes no mention of the Fighting skill. In the GMG, it continues to suggest that by removing Forces from the equation, a GM would have to recalculate all defaults. This just throws me into more confusion, because I was under the impression that normal skill checks didn't add Forces to the equation under any circumstances...

I don't blame you for your confusion. I reviewed the rules very quickly, and between pg 61 (Skill + Characteristic), 62 (Strength + Corp Forces) and 75 (Chracteristic + Forces...except they say there is also a skill whose addition is undefined), it says many different things.* I never heard about the Forces bit until I checked the errata. Essentially, for melee combat only, one adds skill (Sword) + Characteristic (Str) + Governing Forces (Corporeal). Likewise the Fighting skill is added to Str and Corp Forces to give your total target number. Do not do this with any ranged combat weapon. (This is a feature, not a flaw. IN designers hate guns! But I agree. It's the gun doing the work, not the person)

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On a related note, we should have as many contributers as possible on this. Archangel Beth is not supposed to be our Rules Monkey, even if she is generous with her time.


*I am uncertain of the Fate of the IN editors, but IIRC, in Texas such actions are grounds for justifiable flogging as a warning to White Wolf editors. Or maybe Stevie hired some from Georgia...

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

Does this mean Mr. Prim has to spent Total Force hours LOOKING for someone to satisfy that particular kink and once he finds that person, he is free; or does that mean he'd best buy a case, because he'll have to spend Total Force hours indulging himself. (Think of the chaffing)

My own thoughts (reached independently of AAB's, for what it's worth) is that it would be the latter. Lust starts in the mind but for Andre is ultimately a physical act -- so to reflect Andre's own nature, the desire would be an urge to "Do it! Right now! Who cares what anyone thinks, you're the only one that matters ..."

Note that this could lead to some serious jail time depending on the particular kink, whom you have to seduce/abduct/drug/deceive to pull it off, and how careful you are not to get caught in the heat of your "passion."

(And of course, the fact that one had engaged for so long would weigh heavily on the person's mind when he came out of the Dark Desire. After all, anyone can have twisted thoughts now and again, but to commit an act like that must mean you're really a perv without hope, right? If the person surrenders to the despair, he may even find himself repeating the act without any prompting from Andre's folks at all, delighting the Salacious Prince even more.)

[JCD]

But that means for one Essence, a human would be 'indisposed' for 9-18 hours.

That seems a bit excessive. Would a better compromise be either/or? Mr Prim has to start to look for a) a case of quince jam, and someone willing to indulge him. Once he has both, however long it takes, he has to use the remainder of his time 'indulging?'

Nine hours seems a very VERY long time for any act...except role playing of course...

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by JCD

Nine hours seems a very VERY long time for any act...except role playing of course...

I could make a comment here about what sort of "role playing" Andre and his demons like, but I suspect the profanity filter would censor it to unreadability.

Besides, 9-18 hours is a night or a weekend to remember... just ask Andre or his demons!

[alexondria]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

My own thoughts (reached independently of AAB's, for what it's worth) is that it would be the latter. Lust starts in the mind but for Andre is ultimately a physical act -- so to reflect Andre's own nature, the desire would be an urge to "Do it! Right now! Who cares what anyone thinks, you're the only one that matters ..."

Note that this could lead to some serious jail time depending on the particular kink, whom you have to seduce/abduct/drug/deceive to pull it off, and how careful you are not to get caught in the heat of your "passion."

(And of course, the fact that one had engaged for so long would weigh heavily on the person's mind when he came out of the Dark Desire. After all, anyone can have twisted thoughts now and again, but to commit an act like that must mean you're really a perv without hope, right? If the person surrenders to the despair, he may even find himself repeating the act without any prompting from Andre's folks at all, delighting the Salacious Prince even more.)

Just a side note- personally I think the attunement would be more effectively used with minor things. Things that just push the victim a little bit out of the comfort zone at a time until you've created a monster. Kinda like how Shedim work.

[JCD]

What if he can't find the jam?

[Archangel Beth]

I'd say he runs around looking all night. (Or possibly sitting in a corner rocking and moaning about it, depending.) Maybe googling feverishly for how to make one's own?