Alternate Crosstime Organizations

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

I think you mean "projectors."

indeed. changed.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Yes, to both. The information is in Campaigns in the "Keeping the Secret" box on page 540.

However, depending on their method, they might be controllable in another parallel. Somewhere less pleasant.

Depends on how much control humanitarian and/or squeamish oversight has to counteract the harsh pragmatic murdering of ISWAT command.
S.O.P. is to send Jumpers and scientists to Coventry, regardless. Of course ISWAT often "loses" such "threats" on the way, but on paper, rules are rules.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Depends on how much control humanitarian and/or squeamish oversight has to counteract the harsh pragmatic murdering of ISWAT command.

Well, ISWAT doesn't exist, so, they have no oversight. Coupled with the idea that non-Homeliners don't really have rights, it's a potential mess.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

S.O.P. is to send Jumpers and scientists to Coventry, regardless. Of course ISWAT often "loses" such "threats" on the way, but on paper, rules are rules.

That's standard, but, depending on how much they figure out, the subject may be sent to other locations.

These are not nice people. They may not be as bad as I make them out, but they're closer to black hats than white knights.

ETA:
I’m sure the mention of “more obscure detention facilities” is intended to give the GM carte blanche to create whatever secure facilities they may need.

Some of these are likely hostage facilities, where, as I suggested above, the loved ones of “agents” could be held, to be produced as needed, to ensure cooperation. After all, Coventry can’t be that easy to get people out of, and there’s no guarantee of their survival there.

I’d be surprised if some of the worlds didn’t have divergent physical laws allowing different forms of “enhanced interrogation techniques.” Mind control. Mind reading. Psionics or magic. Some victims who wind up on Coventry might have made a trip to one or two of these first . . ..

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

...
That's true. They aren't. If she rejects their recruitment offers, then they will try to imprison her. Their canonical approach is NOT to shoot her. It's to strand her in Conventry. She may have a cosmic world-jumper ability that Coventry can't stop but they don't know that. All that means is that she'll successfully escape. But they will do their best to convince her to sign on, providing all reasonable incentives.
...

So, instead of removing her from her life and causing her friends and relatives to mourn her absence by killing her, they remove her from her life and cause her friends and relatives to mourn her absence by abducting her. Either way, she's removed from her life and her friends and family mourn her absence.

Honesty, the whole Coventry deal as presented in Infinite Worlds is a case of Why Don't You Just Shoot Him? (warning: tropes site) - a chance for Homeline to hold the Idiot Ball while giving the PCs a chance to continue the campaign by figuring out some way to escape the deathtrap they've been dropped into. From a gameplay perspective, that's a good thing.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by robkelk

So, instead of removing her from her life and causing her friends and relatives to mourn her absence by killing her, they remove her from her life and cause her friends and relatives to mourn her absence by abducting her. Either way, she's removed from her life and her friends and family mourn her absence.

In a nutshell, yes. All because Homeline believes they have the right to impose their will about transdimensional travel on everyone. Especially those who aren't from Homeline.

Are they dropping Reich-5 troopers on Coventry when they catch them? That would be catastrophically bad for all of the innocents they've banished and colonists living there.

We know they're dropping innocent civilians from Shikaku-Mon there:

Originally Posted by Infinite Worlds, pg 148

They have already had to send several too inquisitive natives to Coventry, and the ongoing missing persons investigations are yet another focus of anxiety for Patrol operations.

Which, really, is a mark against abductions. Abducting a scientist is going to raise a lot of eyebrows and launch a much larger investigation than framing a murder to look like a robbery-gone-wrong. Leaving nothing behind really gets the authorities' attention. At least, leaving a body behind opens the suspect list to serial killers and more while closing a number of other leads and makes "interdimensionalaliensdidit" significantly less likely.

And, let's be honest, if TL8 people will have a hard time adjusting to TL4, how are TL8/9 people going to manage?

Originally Posted by robkelk

Honesty, the whole Coventry deal as presented in Infinite Worlds is a case of Why Don't You Just Shoot Him? (warning: tropes site) - a chance for Homeline to hold the Idiot Ball while giving the PCs a chance to continue the campaign by figuring out some way to escape the deathtrap they've been dropped into. From a gameplay perspective, that's a good thing.

But, from a world-building perspective it's a lie you tell yourself so you can maintain the veneer of moral propriety. Basically, it's an oubliette unless the players need it not to be.

It's the "orcs are chaotic evil, so you can kill as many as you want and not feel bad about it." You can bring people to be dropped on Coventry--they'll actually be free and safe, but can't possibly interfere with The Secret anymore. It's like telling a child that they're old, beloved dog is going upstate to live on a farm, when, in reality, you've had them put to sleep. It's intellectually and morally dishonest at best.

Infinity, I-Cops, I-SWAT, they're bad guys. Centrum isn't any worse, they're just different. Arguably, they're "better" because they're less dishonest.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

I don't see how that would work, effectively. If you have a place that you bring people in, that's a fixed point that is vulnerable to attack.

Unless Infinity supports a fortress there that they regularly bring supplies to.

This is actually what I suggest. These are valuable people, and you really don't want someone else running off with them. And if the fortress is taken over, the prisoners are still on the far side of the real gate. You send in a team from a different fortress, and subdue them. Prison Riots happen.

And yes, you totally should be using multiple fortresses and communities. You should not be sticking stubborn scientists in the same community as your home-grown world-hopping crime lords, and you should keep both away from crazy world-hoppers.

I'm sure some survive, but, unless they're taking a census, they have no idea how many die within three months of being dropped there. And I doubt they even care.

You've got incentive to take care of these folks because Coventry is essentially a PR stunt. Its about letting the folks at home sleep at night. Its about convincing your people that you are better than the opposition. And its a good idea to try and run Coventry with good PR as well. You divide people up based on how you intend to treat them, and act accordingly. You want to be able to retrieve these people eventually, and for a lot of them the idea really isn't punishment. My version of Coventry is actually an economic drain, with medicine and even food being shipped in for the populace. I even have a team whose job it is to argue people out of Coventry.

But, just by having this conversation, if Infinity saw it, we would both be sent to Coventry.

Wait, what? that's something of an overreach. If infinity saw this conversation, rounding up every person on this thread and shipping them off would not be on their todo list. The proper response would be to investigate the people publishing it, possibly disappear them depending on what they found out, and then publish faulty information about themselves. Problem solved. You sent maybe five people to Coventry if the folks publishing actually had an inside source. None if you you don't. Now, that doesn't make them into very dramatic bad guys, but most of us don't use them that way.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by ericthered

This is actually what I suggest. These are valuable people, and you really don't want someone else running off with them. And if the fortress is taken over, the prisoners are still on the far side of the real gate. You send in a team from a different fortress, and subdue them. Prison Riots happen.

But, that's not really discussed in the canon. And, unless they're going to force everyone to stay in their assigned TL4 serfdom, how can they control the population. And then, it's just a TL4 prison, so it is an inhumane punishment.

The Reich-5 world-jumpers are going to escape and meet up. Possibly abducting a number of brilliant scientists to help find a way home. And they'll leave with a bevvy of brilliant scientists who were close to discovering dimensional travel on their own. Good job, Infinity.

Originally Posted by ericthered

And yes, you totally should be using multiple fortresses and communities. You should not be sticking stubborn scientists in the same community as your home-grown world-hopping crime lords, and you should keep both away from crazy world-hoppers.

Are you shipping in slave-labor to make food for them? Most of the scientists I know aren't terribly physically-labor inclined. And, if they're not agriculturalists, they don't know diddly about growing crops. I do see that you answer this below, but the point still stands.

Originally Posted by ericthered

You've got incentive to take care of these folks because Coventry is essentially a PR stunt. Its about letting the folks at home sleep at night. Its about convincing your people that you are better than the opposition. And its a good idea to try and run Coventry with good PR as well. You divide people up based on how you intend to treat them, and act accordingly. You want to be able to retrieve these people eventually, and for a lot of them the idea really isn't punishment. My version of Coventry is actually an economic drain, with medicine and even food being shipped in for the populace. I even have a team whose job it is to argue people out of Coventry.

Wait. What? No, it's not a PR stunt. It's an oubliette. They don't let people go investigate this place. It's a penal colony, and Homeline really has no reason to treat these people with any level of respect because, as the basic book points out:

Originally Posted by Campaigns, pg 540

It would not be unfair to conclude that Infinity and Centrum regard outtimers – as a group, if not as individuals – as something less than “real” people with human rights. Infinity’s PR department does its best to downplay this perception, but every time the I-Cops cart some outtimer off to Coventry, they send the message that Homeline is somehow “superior.”

These aren't real people, they're criminals or outtimer scum who are messing with Homeline's status quo. They deserve to be punished. There's no reason to let it be a resource drain. Did Alcatraz have good PR? Only in, it's a place you send people you want to forget about. Beyond that, no. And that's exactly what Coventry is.

At a basic level, you're right. It's a morally bankrupt version of "we're better than they are" even though you're not. It's "we didn't kill them, but we did turn them into slaves, basically. So, we're better than those who did kill their objectors!" It's a lie they tell themselves to feel "superior."

And, that's great for your version, but, that's not the version depicted in the books. The picture the books paint of Infinity is a very bleak, basically fascist world.

• Homeliners are real, no one else is.
• If you're not a Homeliner, you're "other."
• Homeline's laws are the only laws that really matter.
• Other timelines exist only for the amusement of Homeline.
• If you're not a Homeliner, and you break their rules, you are banished to a place you'll never escape from, with no appeal.
• Infinity controls all outtime industry (they can shut them down at any time--that's control).
• Infinity controls all outtime commerce (see above).
• If you disagree, you can be banished to that place you'll never escape from.

Hail Hydra.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Wait, what? that's something of an overreach. If infinity saw this conversation, rounding up every person on this thread and shipping them off would not be on their todo list. The proper response would be to investigate the people publishing it, possibly disappear them depending on what they found out, and then publish faulty information about themselves. Problem solved. You sent maybe five people to Coventry if the folks publishing actually had an inside source. None if you you don't. Now, that doesn't make them into very dramatic bad guys, but most of us don't use them that way.

I never said "cart everyone in the thread off" I said "we would both be sent to Coventry." "Both" indicating you and I.

WE would be carted off to Coventry because we "know too much."

They would then take over our accounts and discredit our arguments, and everyone else's just like you said above. Then, they'd probably abduct a few more people from the fora, especially a mod, whom they would impersonate and go in and delete our discussion about Coventry. Problem solved. Other than there are a half-dozen people who simply vanished with no reason.

[Mark Skarr]

I want to address this separately:

Originally Posted by ericthered

Now, that doesn't make them into very dramatic bad guys, but most of us don't use them that way.

From my experience, most people don't use Infinity/I-Cops/I-SWAT as bad guys at all. I'm one of the few.

To use a conspiracy-theory cliche: I didn't drink the kool-aid.

Most players/GMs want Infinity to be the good guys, and ignore all of the morally sketchy and horrible things they do. They accept that Homeline is real and the other lines are just there for the plundering. Like you, they believe that Coventry is an idyllic, romanticized version of TL4. But, it's more like the real TL 4 in that it sucks, but at least they have decent medicine.

After all, who gave Homeline the right to decide who can and cannot know about transdimensional travel? They gave it to themselves. Why? Monopolistic reasons. They don't want others out there that they can't control. It's only their oyster as long as no one else can use it without their permission.

Most people want to think that their characters are doing the right and good thing, without thinking about the repercussions. We saved world-line X from Centrum, we're heroes! Now we can go back to sending tourists and strip-mining Africa without interruption.

[Flyndaran]

At the risk of bringing up real politics, your last paragraph perfectly describes both sides in the Cold War. Lots of "we're not destroying independent nations and peoples with proxy wars and resource stripping, but saving them from the evil corruptions of 'other side'."
If anything now, Centrum is starting to look more like the U.S. in the conflict to me. At least they want to bring all others into their monoculture.
Homeline wants to use, abuse, and often destroy all enemies of the state.
At "best", Conventry is an internment camp, at worst gulag.

[Prince Charon]

It occurs to me that someone able to bypass Coventry's travel restrictions and having a grudge against Infinity would find Coventry a fertile recruiting ground.

I'm not sure what the name of the organization would be, but the reaction of Infinity agents, not to mention the organization itself, to finding people they know were sent to Coventry (and that are clearly those individuals, not counterparts from other worlds) is likely to be pretty strong, something to be very deeply concerned about. That doesn't mean that they'll be working against every Infinity operation they come across (they could be just as much against Centrum or Reich-5 as against Infinity), but they are likely to be very busy causing trouble, such as outing the Secret on various worlds that they know Infinity to be active on.