Parrying Brass Knuckles

[coronatiger]

Does an attack with brass knuckles count as an unarmed attack, i.e. does a successful parry with a weapon against a brass knuckles attack grant the immediate counterattack as described on page B376?

On one hand, the attacker uses an unarmed combat skill like Karate or Brawling to hit the opponent, but on the other hand, the attack attempts to make an item strike the defender, like when one attacks with a knife.

[Dalin]

I would definitely count it as an unarmed attack. I can't imagine the person parrying trying to aim for the knuckles. Slashing at their hand or arm should do the trick, right? This wouldn't seem appreciably more difficult than parrying a regular punch.

Admittedly, I say this as someone who knows nothing in RL about this sort of combat. If a knowledgeable player convinced me that the knuckles might play a legitimate defensive role, I might consider a -1 to the parrying weapon skill (but not cumulative with the -4 for karate).

[Verjigorm]

Brass knuckles are still unarmed. So they get the parry bonuses and abilities. And you don't count as armed.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Dalin

I would definitely count it as an unarmed attack. I can't imagine the person parrying trying to aim for the knuckles. Slashing at their hand or arm should do the trick, right? This wouldn't seem appreciably more difficult than parrying a regular punch.

Come to think of it, you could realistically try and slash at the hand/arm of someone using a C-range weapon like a knife too.

But if you had brass knuckles, you would have defensive options like "try and intercept this knife edge with my first" that people generally wouldn't choose to do against knives. I know I'd definitely prefer wearing a pair of brass knuckles to try and block knife swipes than be unarmed.

I think if someone successfully parried brass knuckles with their knife that would be more like using the knife to block the knuckles. Ignoring the striking surface to redirect the attack by hitting some other further surface should be harder, and probably suffer penalties similar to someone reaching past a knife edge to push a wrist.

[Tomsdad]

I might well count brass knuckles as unarmed in terms of the benefit armed opponents get when defending against them, but I'd also probably count them as armed when unarmed opponent try and parry them.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Plane

Come to think of it, you could realistically try and slash at the hand/arm of someone using a C-range weapon like a knife too.

But if you had brass knuckles, you would have defensive options like "try and intercept this knife edge with my first" that people generally wouldn't choose to do against knives. I know I'd definitely prefer wearing a pair of brass knuckles to try and block knife swipes than be unarmed.

I think if someone successfully parried brass knuckles with their knife that would be more like using the knife to block the knuckles. Ignoring the striking surface to redirect the attack by hitting some other further surface should be harder, and probably suffer penalties similar to someone reaching past a knife edge to push a wrist.

Brass knuckles don't have a lot of surface area. You essentially would have to punch at the blade, and you don't have anything to protect your hand, other than a thin bar of metal. They don't really offer an advantage against a knife.

To be fair, a knife isn't really a great parrying tool either.

[hal]

Brass knuckles is a brawling weapon (see page 274 notes 3 as well as page 271 where it tells you which skills the attack with brass knuckles is based upon).

Consequently - someone throwing a punch via DX while wearing brass knuckles is no different than someone throwing a punch without brass knuckles. The action is a "Punch". The use of the "Brass" aspect of the knuckles is merely providing armor for the knuckles and adding additional damage to the tune of +1 damage.

Per GURPS MARTIAL ARTS pg 213 - it has this to say:

"The wearer ignores Hurting Yourself (p. B379) when punching and gets +1 to punching damage, but also suffers from Bad Grip 3 (p. B123)."

[Plane]

Originally Posted by hal

Brass knuckles is a brawling weapon (see page 274 notes 3 as well as page 271 where it tells you which skills the attack with brass knuckles is based upon).

Consequently - someone throwing a punch via DX while wearing brass knuckles is no different than someone throwing a punch without brass knuckles.

"Pummeling" also uses the Brawling skill. Is that also no different than someone throwing a punch?

You can use "Two Handed Punch" with a helmet over your hands, but i don't think that necessarily is the same as doing a bare-handed 2-handed punch

[hal]

Originally Posted by Plane

"Pummeling" also uses the Brawling skill. Is that also no different than someone throwing a punch?

You can use "Two Handed Punch" with a helmet over your hands, but i don't think that necessarily is the same as doing a bare-handed 2-handed punch

When I first saw this post, I was punch drunk with fatigue and thinking "I must be too tired to make sense of what you're asking". Now, a bit later and with some sleep under my belt, I'm still finding it difficult to get the intent of your question.

When I tried to answer prior and thought that I'd better get some sleep first, the question of "what is pummeling" seemed to be what you were asking. When you have a weapon hilt in your hand being grasped for intent to use - your fingers curl around the hilt much in the same manner as a roll of coins (improvisational brass knuckles) Problem is, your knuckles are still exposed to taking self-inflicted damage (if using logic here). Punching someone while holding a sword would be essentially a punch, just with some unwieldy by mass item in the hand while punching. I guess that is why there is a penalty of -1 to skill when utilizing the pummeling attack. But it isn't just a matter of "punching" per se. For instance, you can bring your fist down as if it were a hammer. Is it a "punch" or is it simply an unarmed attack that happens to have an implement in the hand while doing it? You can't parry effectively with a sword if you're bringing your hand down like a hammer - pommel first. You can't use the steel of the blade itself - so it isn't a sword attack per se. When you hammer at the foe with your pommel, that could be a hammer fist. But it is still an unarmed attack, and regulated by the skill name "Brawling" or "Boxing" or "Karate" or even simply, a DX default roll (where no skill is being used).

As for using a helmet for a Two handed punch, as GM, I'd ask the player to describe what precisely they are doing with the helmet (ie show me by motion of hands etc). If they are grasping the lip of the helmet and swinging it with two hands, that's largely an improvised rock being hammered at the person (for an improvised hammer/club like attack). If they somehow grab a chin strap, hold that with two hands, and THRUST forward with a punching motion, that MIGHT be a two handed punch, and if it is protecting the hands, it could every easily be treated like a brass knuckle in the sense that it protects the person from taking incidental damage to their own hands so that if they roll 5+ points of damage, they don't incur the penalty of self-inflicted damage. But other than that, the use of a helmet for a two handed punch seems at first blush, to be an illegal use of the technique of two handed punches per GURPS MARTIAL ARTS.

That's my take on it. As always, if someone has a dissenting view, I can respect that, but if I can't agree to the dissent's points, then I simply shrug it off as "Agree to disagree" and let it go at that.

[Plane]

MA111 actually has two cases of unarmed combat skills being used with weapons, and it doesn't seem clear that any of them intend this to mean that you would use the usual rules for unarmed combat (Hurting Yourself on high damage against 3 DR, penalty to parry weapons, if a weapon parries you it gets a free attack on your arm, if you fail to parry a weapon it can hit your arm)

Pummeling allows penalized DX/Brawling/Karate (or their Hammer Fist / Two-Handed Punch techniques) for hitting with pommels, while tonfas or sword with knuckle guards allow full DX/Brawling/Boxing/Karate (no mention if HammerFist / Two-Handed Punch can be substituted)

Reversed Grip allows parries based on Brawling or Karate...

A failed parry lets the attacker choose to hit his original target or the weapon (the arm would be struck if it weren’t for the weapon; see p. B377).

Using that as a precedent... if people who parried a Tonfa-Pummel or Pommel-Pummel using a weapon did get a free indefensible attack (as they normally would if they successfully parry an unarmed attack using a weapon) then I think it would make sense to substitute the weapon as the available target instead of the limb.