Blood makes the grass grow... but nukes don't

[alsteel]

So I was going through my stack of old Ogre/GEV maps yesterday and it struck me. The only map that I have that represents what I understand as SJ's vision of the "Last War" battlefield is the original map. That little rectangular stretch of land somewhere in the world that epitomizes how the ravaged landscape would appear once nuclear shell spewing combatants had clashed over it. It's no wonder then that I began taking notice of how green and blue and downright "cheery" all the other maps in SJG boxes appeared. Gone were the craters and rubble piled revets, replaced with green fields, lush forests, streams, rivers even towns! How is this possible I wondered?

SJ's Ogreverse paints a pretty bleak environmental picture... an apocalyptic one in fact. Regardless of purpose, once countries start arming their troops with nuclear explosive tipped projectiles, the gloves have pretty much come off. Any pretense of environmental empathy or concern is tossed straight into the bin. Nuclear tipped projectiles, regardless of size, have some pretty dramatic short- and long-term environmental consequences once they start coming into common use. Even a minor battle involving tactical nuclear armed adversaries would be enacted with devastating effect. Leaving in its wake a cratered, lifeless, shell blasted wasteland, with the added benefit of soil, air, and groundwater radioactive contamination that would persist pretty much until the end of humanity's tenure.

While I can dream of a lush landscape on which to slay mine enemies and grow greener with their blood, the stark reality is that once that ground has been trodden in the Ogreverse, it will then forever appear as the moonscape of my nuclear apocalypse nightmares. Those pretty green maps would likely only be representative of the early war. Any fighting on that same ground afterwards would appear as the original SJG Ogre battlefield depicts. The land nearest the fighting wouldn't fair much better either, save the molten craters. Radioactive material, turned to dust and small particles by explosions, fires and such, would leach into the air and groundwater to disastrous result. Airborne particulates from detonations of "tactical" nuclear cruise missiles would loft into the atmosphere and be carried by the winds to cause the death of flora and fauna for hundreds of miles, as well as producing radiation sickness in the general population.

The greener maps we play on are likely representative of the early years of the war. Beyond that, my mind goes to a pretty dark place. A world of starvation, mass extinctions, and stillbirths. A world where the last remaining leaders still cling to the forlorn hope that they will pull off the "big win" to preside over their ruined empire and set their weary forces against one another... and Ogres, sentient and sinister, contrive to foil their designs.

I guess this is my long winded way of saying that I'd like to see larger scale published maps that are representative of the world as it would likely be in that dystopian future. A land where there are no green fields and lush forests, rather lifeless, bleak, cratered and barren. Where cities and towns are replaced with rubble and debris, roads are in ruins, bridges are destroyed, and muddied rivers trace across the map like a battle scar. A land where Ogres play.

[cephalopagus]

Originally Posted by alsteel

So I was going through my stack of old Ogre/GEV maps yesterday and it struck me. The only map that I have that represents what I understand as SJ's vision of the "Last War" battlefield is the original map. That little rectangular stretch of land somewhere in the world that epitomizes how the ravaged landscape would appear once nuclear shell spewing combatants had clashed over it. It's no wonder then that I began taking notice of how green and blue and downright "cheery" all the other maps in SJG boxes appeared. Gone were the craters and rubble piled revets, replaced with green fields, lush forests, streams, rivers even towns! How is this possible I wondered?

SJ's Ogreverse paints a pretty bleak environmental picture... an apocalyptic one in fact. Regardless of purpose, once countries start arming their troops with nuclear explosive tipped projectiles, the gloves have pretty much come off. Any pretense of environmental empathy or concern is tossed straight into the bin. Nuclear tipped projectiles, regardless of size, have some pretty dramatic short- and long-term environmental consequences once they start coming into common use. Even a minor battle involving tactical nuclear armed adversaries would be enacted with devastating effect. Leaving in its wake a cratered, lifeless, shell blasted wasteland, with the added benefit of soil, air, and groundwater radioactive contamination that would persist pretty much until the end of humanity's tenure.

While I can dream of a lush landscape on which to slay mine enemies and grow greener with their blood, the stark reality is that once that ground has been trodden in the Ogreverse, it will then forever appear as the moonscape of my nuclear apocalypse nightmares. Those pretty green maps would likely only be representative of the early war. Any fighting on that same ground afterwards would appear as the original SJG Ogre battlefield depicts. The land nearest the fighting wouldn't fair much better either, save the molten craters. Radioactive material, turned to dust and small particles by explosions, fires and such, would leach into the air and groundwater to disastrous result. Airborne particulates from detonations of "tactical" nuclear cruise missiles would loft into the atmosphere and be carried by the winds to cause the death of flora and fauna for hundreds of miles, as well as producing radiation sickness in the general population.

The greener maps we play on are likely representative of the early years of the war. Beyond that, my mind goes to a pretty dark place. A world of starvation, mass extinctions, and stillbirths. A world where the last remaining leaders still cling to the forlorn hope that they will pull off the "big win" to preside over their ruined empire and set their weary forces against one another... and Ogres, sentient and sinister, contrive to foil their designs.

I guess this is my long winded way of saying that I'd like to see larger scale published maps that are representative of the world as it would likely be in that dystopian future. A land where there are no green fields and lush forests, rather lifeless, bleak, cratered and barren. Where cities and towns are replaced with rubble and debris, roads are in ruins, bridges are destroyed, and muddied rivers trace across the map like a battle scar. A land where Ogres play.

I'd like to think that Mr. Jackson used thermonuclear weapons in his game because that was the most advanced weapons we had in 1977, I pretend that they are really using hafnium weapons now, less of a bang but none of the nasty fallout. But what the hell do I know.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by alsteel

I guess this is my long winded way of saying that I'd like to see larger scale published maps that are representative of the world as it would likely be in that dystopian future. A land where there are no green fields and lush forests, rather lifeless, bleak, cratered and barren. Where cities and towns are replaced with rubble and debris, roads are in ruins, bridges are destroyed, and muddied rivers trace across the map like a battle scar. A land where Ogres play.

Well, Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. :-)

It would be interesting to see a burnt-out version of the maps; dead forests, brown grass, etc. Regardless of color, what the Green maps provide is variety. If every map just looked like the Ogre map, the game would be less interesting in the long run.

[alsteel]

Originally Posted by cephalopagus

I'd like to think that Mr. Jackson used thermonuclear weapons in his game because that was the most advanced weapons we had in 1977, I pretend that they are really using hafnium weapons now, less of a bang but none of the nasty fallout. But what the hell do I know.

Agreed, Tactical nukes were all the rage then with the 155 and Rocket propelled battlefield nuke, plus the layered armor concept was rendering the average AP round useless. Couple that with the shoulder fired ATM which was really giving armor commanders nightmares. I don't thing depleted uranium came into use until the 90's. I'm sure SJ built his epic sci-fi vision based on the technology of the day and potential in the near future (lasers, AI, and such).

Being an OG of the Ogreverse it was interesting to see the timeline that SJ developed and published in the original OM's vs the early years. It seems to suggest some hope for the future. Prior to that it was a nuke slinging free-for-all. Curious how that corresponded to the lowered world threat of nuclear annihilation due the USSR's collapse.

[alsteel]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

Well, Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. :-)

It would be interesting to see a burnt-out version of the maps; dead forests, brown grass, etc. Regardless of color, what the Green maps provide is variety. If every map just looked like the Ogre map, the game would be less interesting in the long run.

LOL! I know, not exactly a nice hope filled holiday thought. ;)

True, I enjoy the variety of terrain and flexibility of all the other maps published since the original. But I would LOVE to see a true "devastated battlefield" version. Where the stands of trees are replaced with stripped bare stalks, craters and rubble piles, broken roads, ruined cities, muddied rivers, etc. All of those terrain features present their own challenges for game play too. Just something different and of the size of the GEV map.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by alsteel

All of those terrain features present their own challenges for game play too. Just something different and of the size of the GEV map.

This is probably the biggest issue with doing it, actually. In order for it to not just be visual eye-candy (eg, forest is still forest, it just looks different), that means a new set of terrain effects. Things could get out of hand rather quickly going down that road.

It's not like the precedent hasn't been set to a certain degree, though. G.E.V.'s very first scenario, Breakthrough, has all the towns destroyed and the bridges out at the start; a hint at the devastation to come.

[alsteel]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

This is probably the biggest issue with doing it, actually. In order for it to not just be visual eye-candy (eg, forest is still forest, it just looks different), that means a new set of terrain effects. Things could get out of hand rather quickly going down that road.

It's not like the precedent hasn't been set to a certain degree, though. G.E.V.'s very first scenario, Breakthrough, has all the towns destroyed and the bridges out at the start; a hint at the devastation to come.

What's wrong with a little eye candy? If we didn't want a new, better, visual experience, then nobody would have purchased ODE (or the followups) that already owned the originals. :) If just for visual impact the terrain effects already exist. Craters, rubble, rivers and streams, forests, roads, etc wouldn't change or require any new rules. The terrain templates exist also so not a ton of design effort would be needed. Just some beta testing to make sure whatever map was created wouldn't give some distinct advantage. I dunno.. something different than the old tired O1 map and the lush "somewhere.. in Europe" maps.

Don't get me wrong. There's been a LOT of Ogreverse stuff coming out of SJG recently. They appear to be "all-in" and for that, I'm a happy camper. But since the R&D/Production team seems to be in full swing it would be nice to see something a little new. The maps haven't changed since the printing of Shockwave (whose cover art has a MkV emerging from a giant nuclear blast BTW ;) ) and that was 1984... God I'm old...

[woodchuck]

Maybe give each player a number or "destruction points" for altering terrain before the start of a game. 3pts for craters or destroying a river bridge, 2pts for town hexes, stream bridges, and 1pt for road or rail hexes, forest hexes or a ridge line. This was just off the top of my head, so I'm not sure how this would balance.

[selenite]

Before you despair over the fate of the world, you might want to check out the satellite imagery of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on Google Maps. They've recovered nicely.

Short term the Last War could certainly devastate an area. But when you consider the loss rates of the forces there's not going to lots of time spent flinging nukes around. Most of the Last War had to be troops staring at each other over a DMZ.

[Desert Scribe]

If you use the terrain destruction rule, then those nice pristine towns and forests soon turn to rubble. Especially when the cruise missiles start flying.