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Old 12-07-2018, 02:30 PM   #71
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Under times of stress "uncontrollable" will cause your power to revert to mischievous GM control for inconvenient and sometimes destructive effects. Those effects don't usually benefit you, though, which is why it's a limitation and not an enhancement. You've been treating this limitation as though the ability will suddenly decided to do things for your benefit, which fits Reflexive better.
B116 "A harmful ability goes after obvious foes first".

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Sure, if you can do that *before* they act. If you do it after they roll to hit, it's already happened and you can't go back in time to interrupt that action. You can only defend against it at that point.
It "acts" when a bullet is 6 feet away from you, hasn't already hit

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If you want to do weird things as house rules, go ahead. Ranged attacks aren't affected for AE for many reasons which I've already stated. It's not especially realistic (the effect wouldn't be fast enough or powerful enough most of the time), this game isn't supposed to require an advanced physics degree to play, and the game mechanics are "you get what you buy".
"my flames that burn everything in a six foot radius" vapes a snowball thrown at you before it hits, "my airy aura knocks back anything which gets within six feet of me" slaps back a snowball thrown at you before it hits

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Wouldn't an exception to your argument support what I have been saying? I just don't see the relevance "I beam a bullet into you" has on a discussion about timing and areas.
The relevance is beamed bullets do not experience a period of time in which they are being damaged by the aura PRIOR to hitting a target. Beamed bullets function like hitting a normal (non-AE) Aura.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Waits let you take your action out of sequence. The whole notion of "wait" is that you've waiting to take your action. If you're doing other actions you're not withholding your action until the right time.
An Aura essentially begins its "Wait" when it is first turned on.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Rule citation? Just because it may happen at the same time, doesn't imply it interrupts their action.
I can't expect that by throwing a hobbit through a fire-wall that there will be anything left of him to hit my target by the time it gets there.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
In the case of a projectile the game mechanic is that I make a roll based on modifiers, and if it hits, the target can make a defense. Realistically we know that it covers that distance, but mechanically cover and other intervening things are accounted for in the roll. Over penetration accounts for potential damage loss, and rules have been satisfied. In that sequence, where would a character that took a wait be able to interject a "normal" action?
Mechanically there doesn't appear to be anything preventing you from saying "Wait > shoot the incoming snowball with my gun as soon as the snowball is thrown". Snowballs are bigger and slower than bullets so absorbing the speed/SM penalties would be a little more feasible than say with shooting an incoming bullet.

You can already "Wait .. throw a Knee Attack into whatever hand they try to Hammer Fist me with", if you want. The penalties for trying to Knee Attack an incoming bullet would be pretty extraordinary, do you want me to calculate them?

I don't want to delve too much into Wait mechanics, because clearly Area Effect attacks which hit anything crossing into them (via Aura or Persistant) are a lot more inclusive than a sentient choice of Wait criteria. Wait is only being used as an example of interrupting turns.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Without supernatural/cinematic abilities, you couldn't "attack" a bullet shot at you, nor can you parry it.
The rules prohibit parrying it, but I don't see where the rules prohibit attacking it if you've taken a Wait. The penalties due to the speed and size of the bullet just work to make it not really an option since they would reduce any normal human below skill 3 where they can't even bother rolling.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
It seems broken that you'd try to let the AE attack something out of sequence in an effort to disrupt someone else's sequence when the user of the AE didn't take a wait, didn't sacrifice anything, isn't rolling to hit, and isn't following the traditional model of attacking where successful attacks are just defended against by active defenses.
It's not out of sequence though: with AE+Persistent you already made your Attack Maneuver to put the AE in place. With AE+Aura you already made your Ready Maneuver to turn on your Aura. Time was already sacrificed to put these AEs in place.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Bullets often take damage during the attack (as do other projectiles). We just don't worry about the effects on the projectile since the damage caused by the projectile isn't affected by the the damage it takes.
If you did enough damage to completely vaporize a body being thrown at you, that should definitely prevent that body from damaging things afterward. I think we generally don't worry about that with bullets because the amount of damage it would take to reduce a bullet to -10xHP would be pretty extreme. Even for bullets with merely 1 HP and 0 DR that's going to take 11 damage. What velocity would something with 1 HP have to be traveling at for a collision to do that much damage to it?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
It would probably be around DR3 based on the hardness scale.
Okay, so 14 damage then.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
"Those that leave are free from the Affliction." The Affliction gives you Total Klutz. If you suffer when not in the area how are you "free" of it in any sense?
Free of subsequent attacks from the affliction, having the duration of Total Klutz constantly renewed. If you want Reduced Duration that only takes effect when you leave the AE, this is actually part of the "Aura of Power" build, but it isn't part of Ice Slick. It is a great idea for it conceptually, but that is definitely a limitation on how Affliction normally works.


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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
there are good balance reasons so ST1 bindings aren't used to do silly things.
Yeah, though I'm not sure how to apply those Force Field rules, any ideas? Binding doesn't even get DR until 3rd level, so it seems like rolling 1 "damage" on your thrust would be enough to push through the bindings, unless your damage must also then exceed the ST. Bindings can also be enhanced to be immune to all but certain attacks, and I don't know how that would interact with this 'free thrust'.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That's unnecessary because the bullets follow different (and existing) rules. For the purpose of blasting through, bindings have a DR of 1/3 and an effective HP (ST) equal to it's level. A ST9 binding would be destroyed by 12 points in a single attack, and probably reduces damage by the same amount for overpenetration (thin object, DR + effective HP). A bullet that doesn't do that much damage, wouldn't penetrate through it.
I was thinking ahead in terms of the contest of ST to "break free" as an alternative means of bypass than direct attack on the DR/ST-as-HP in cases where the Binding happens to be immune to the Piercing damage of bullets via the "Only Damaged by X" enhancement.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
As a physical barrier with DR and (effective) HP energy attacks will be just as stopped by Bind.
Barrier usually means it obstructs vision, I think you need "Wall" for that. AE+Persistent just means anything entering it gets targeted and bound up.

Prior to the target entering though, the binding specific to them (like a vine) doesn't actually exist to target though, so I don't know if it would be right to be able to target it for attack prior to it's spontaneous creation to deal with an intruder.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If you sit down and calculate how much a 100mph force (wind?) could affect a fairy traveling at mach 2 per "hex" (yard) of force. I come up with (686 m/s for Mach 2, 44m/s for 100mph) about .064 meters of deviation per hex. As "backward" movement, it's insignificant.
Like with obstruction: after you apply the Knockback on the fairy, they can keep using their remaining movement points to travel the remaining distance, so in most cases it's not enough. But for a bullet being shot within 3ft of its maximum distance (or 3ft of its 1/2D) even a yard of knockback might be just enough to push past change points.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
As side force it could screw up aiming, but wouldn't do anything for damage.
Well, if knockback to the side threw an arrow into a spin so the tip was no longer aimed at the target... yeah that whole area is too confusing for me right now, you can discuss that with Andreas since he brought it up :) I'm solidly in the "let's just discuss when the direction of knockback is directly toward the attack's origin, because otherwise evil geometry" frame of mind.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Side effects are about real world consequences. Game effects are about what you buy. If you aren't buying a game effect here, there's no reason why there would be a side effect.

Furthermore, you'd have to justify the ability. How does this violent non-wounding knockback field work? Why doesn't it justify DR?
DR would protect against the attacks of people who you couldn't knock back, be divided by Armor Divisor and ablated by Corrosion, so it's not DR. It's "the attack doesn't get to me because it's further away than it originally was because I knocked it back mid-travel".
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Old 12-07-2018, 03:51 PM   #72
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
B116 "A harmful ability goes after obvious foes first".
If we are cherry picking "nobody [else] is safe!", but the first sentence is more critical "manifest itself in undesirable and inappropriate times". Uncontrollable is a limitation because your power isn't predictable or under your control.

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It "acts" when a bullet is 6 feet away from you, hasn't already hit
Nope, if I declare an attack, roll to hit, and it's a success, I've hit. You can use an active defense at that point (power parry), but gamewise I've rolled and hit.

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"my flames that burn everything in a six foot radius" vapes a snowball thrown at you before it hits, "my airy aura knocks back anything which gets within six feet of me" slaps back a snowball thrown at you before it hits
Sure, buy DR10, like "Flamin' Jane" the iconic flaming GURPS hero. That's how it's been done when you have an aura that also stops damage.

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The relevance is beamed bullets do not experience a period of time in which they are being damaged by the aura PRIOR to hitting a target. Beamed bullets function like hitting a normal (non-AE) Aura.
There's no proof that bullets that traverse the distance take into account damage suffered. Furthermore if you're wreathed in flames, you'll probably just get struck by hotter lead which means that your statements are not a good general case either.

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An Aura essentially begins its "Wait" when it is first turned on.
It functions as a semi-sentient Ally that can decide to take it's turn later? I guess my rules book omitted that paragraph.

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I can't expect that by throwing a hobbit through a fire-wall that there will be anything left of him to hit my target by the time it gets there.
How hot of a fire do you expect to completely "dust to dust" incinerate a hobbit on less than 1 second? That's probably an average of over 100 points of damage (perhaps a min 100?).

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Mechanically there doesn't appear to be anything preventing you from saying "Wait > shoot the incoming snowball with my gun as soon as the snowball is thrown". Snowballs are bigger and slower than bullets so absorbing the speed/SM penalties would be a little more feasible than say with shooting an incoming bullet.
Ok, sure. A character is entitled to a wait (check), you give up your actions while waiting (check), you then shoot taking all the appropriate penalties (check), and then the snowball thrower should roll to hit you with the snowball if it was not destroyed by the bullet. Personally, I'd shoot the thrower rather than the snowball, since you're still shooting based on the threat of being hit rather than the certainty from seeing what the thrower rolled.

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You can already "Wait .. throw a Knee Attack into whatever hand they try to Hammer Fist me with", if you want. The penalties for trying to Knee Attack an incoming bullet would be pretty extraordinary, do you want me to calculate them?
You explicitly cannot intercept bullets without exotic abilities, so it's somewhat moot.

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I don't want to delve too much into Wait mechanics, because clearly Area Effect attacks which hit anything crossing into them (via Aura or Persistant) are a lot more inclusive than a sentient choice of Wait criteria. Wait is only being used as an example of interrupting turns.
Game mechanics don't make any allowance for destroying attacks passing through their area. It's below the threshold for resolution, and really doesn't even make good "game world" sense.

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It's not out of sequence though: with AE+Persistent you already made your Attack Maneuver to put the AE in place. With AE+Aura you already made your Ready Maneuver to turn on your Aura. Time was already sacrificed to put these AEs in place.
Sure, just like the 50 Waits I did yesterday can be used to attack 50 times today during whenever an enemy approaches. Same logic, right? Shame your enemy probably took two days worth of waits as well, just in cause you waited, which caused him to wait...

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Even for bullets with merely 1 HP and 0 DR that's going to take 11 damage. What velocity would something with 1 HP have to be traveling at for a collision to do that much damage to it?

Okay, so 14 damage then.
So bullets self destruct after 11-14 damage and obviously can't hurt anyone more than that? If they strike a DR 15 surface, they are obviously destroyed? The system doesn't bear that out.

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Free of subsequent attacks from the affliction, having the duration of Total Klutz constantly renewed. If you want Reduced Duration that only takes effect when you leave the AE, this is actually part of the "Aura of Power" build, but it isn't part of Ice Slick. It is a great idea for it conceptually, but that is definitely a limitation on how Affliction normally works.
I'm just quoting the description. If you have a problem with it and how it's built relative to the description, perhaps you should take it up with the author (Kromm) instead?

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Yeah, though I'm not sure how to apply those Force Field rules, any ideas?
Presumably as the rules describe. Bullets are affected by DR, like it was DR? Don't try to treat them as mini-PCs hurled at high velocities. It will just hurt your brain.

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Barrier usually means it obstructs vision, I think you need "Wall" for that. AE+Persistent just means anything entering it gets targeted and bound up.
Green Lantern disagrees. All his effects are translucent regardless of what ability he's using. Spidey can make his webs either a solid barrier or a holey one, which I suspect is below the resolution of an enhancement.

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Prior to the target entering though, the binding specific to them (like a vine) doesn't actually exist to target though, so I don't know if it would be right to be able to target it for attack prior to it's spontaneous creation to deal with an intruder.
Unless it's an area persistent binding, such as the quicksand example. Vines make a fairly reasonable bind but don't attack area effect bind. Could you destroy them prior? That probably depends on how the GM has you buy it. Arguably without "no/low signature", you will be able to see something going on in that area waiting to bind you.

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Like with obstruction: after you apply the Knockback on the fairy, they can keep using their remaining movement points to travel the remaining distance, so in most cases it's not enough. But for a bullet being shot within 3ft of its maximum distance (or 3ft of its 1/2D) even a yard of knockback might be just enough to push past change points.
If you want to rely on that effect, buy it as an advantage. It's beyond being game world side effect and powerful enough to justify being worth points. Certainly, by RAW, the Area and Aura/Persistent enhancements were not intended to provide DR.

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DR would protect against the attacks of people who you couldn't knock back, be divided by Armor Divisor and ablated by Corrosion, so it's not DR. It's "the attack doesn't get to me because it's further away than it originally was because I knocked it back mid-travel".
Except that's not part of the advantage or the enhancements. You're trying to apply logic to cherry picked game rules to justify real world effects, rather than buying advantages that reflect world effects you want.

Rule of thumb: a side effect is a descriptive manifestation which might benefit you sometimes under the right condition, but really isn't important/powerful enough to be its own trait. "I fire lava, and leaves minimal quantities of worthless chunks of rock" is meh and perhaps you'll need some lava rock someday. "I fire molten gold, which cools into gold that I can sell to make a side fortune" isn't covered unless you buy other advantages.

Flame area aura is actually more expensive than cr knock back area aura, so it should provide less benefit, yet you're essentially arguing the lesser aura can provide features that the more expensive aura would not.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:00 PM   #73
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If we are cherry picking "nobody [else] is safe!", but the first sentence is more critical "manifest itself in undesirable and inappropriate times". Uncontrollable is a limitation because your power isn't predictable or under your control.
attack powers always target obvious foes first

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
if I declare an attack, roll to hit, and it's a success, I've hit
Bullet Travel, Tactical Shooting 32

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Sure, buy DR10, like "Flamin' Jane" the iconic flaming GURPS hero. That's how it's been done
when you have an aura that also stops damage.
I can't find her in basic set, what book's she in?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
There's no proof that bullets that traverse the distance take into account damage suffered.
Why wouldn't they?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
you'll probably just get struck by hotter lead
if you plasma-roast a bullet into a fine lead mist, it's going to lose some of its penetrating power.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
It functions as a semi-sentient Ally that can decide to take it's turn later? I guess my rules book omitted that paragraph.
There isn't any sentience or decision-making unless you give it orders using Selective Area, but there is the effect of it effectively taking a turn against anything which enters it, and all examples I've seen imply you resolve that as soon as the Aura's AE is entered.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
How hot of a fire do you expect to completely "dust to dust" incinerate a hobbit on less than 1 second? That's probably an average of over 100 points of damage (perhaps a min 100?).
Sounds good. We could even go with 10,000 if you want, just so long as we agree there should probably be some amount of damage which can accomplish it. The amount needed to vaporize bullets to the point of being harmless could be very expensive. "Melt snowballs into steam" might be a better ballpark figure since that takes less heat than melting bullets into lead vapor.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Ok, sure. A character is entitled to a wait (check), you give up your actions while waiting (check), you then shoot taking all the appropriate penalties (check), and then the snowball thrower should roll to hit you with the snowball if it was not destroyed by the bullet. Personally, I'd shoot the thrower rather than the snowball, since you're still shooting based on the threat of being hit rather than the certainty from seeing what the thrower rolled.
The person throwing the snowball is a beloved ally suffering mind control, you don't want to shoot them, they know not what they do.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You explicitly cannot intercept bullets without exotic abilities, so it's somewhat moot.
I've only seen a taboo against parrying them. You don't need rules against shooting them because their size/speed solve that by making it so hard even Hawkeye probably couldn't manage it.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Game mechanics don't make any allowance for destroying attacks passing through their area. It's below the threshold for resolution, and really doesn't even make good "game world" sense.
You're destroying the implement of the attack. If the ogre wielding a club has his club burned into ash while running through your firewall, he can't hit you with that club. No matter how fast he runs through the fire, this won't protect his club from being burned. Throwing the club wouldn't either. Nor firing his club with an arbalest.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Sure, just like the 50 Waits I did yesterday can be used to attack 50 times today during whenever an enemy approaches. Same logic, right? Shame your enemy probably took two days worth of waits as well, just in cause you waited, which caused him to wait...
If you want to cap AE Aura flashes to one per second instead of "one per foe per second" I'd think it's a great idea, though that doesn't seem how Aura of Power works.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
So bullets self destruct after 11-14 damage and obviously can't hurt anyone more than that? If they strike a DR 15 surface, they are obviously destroyed? The system doesn't bear that out.
Depends on what "destroyed" is, what -10xHP signifies. Bullets can flatten out and become unusable and require repair/reforging in some cases. B419 "Total bodily destruction, if this makes sense given the source of the damage – 200 points of arrow wounds leave a messy but recognizable corpse; 200 points of fire injury leaves nothing but an recognizable lump of charcoal." B484 "the object is destroyed. For instance, a sword might shatter instead of merely bending or snapping" (at merely -5xHP, -10x isn't mentioned)

A "shattered" sword could still hit someone with the fragments, but clearly if you were throwing it as an "impaling" attack, it would no longer be that, and instead be a series of smaller cutting attacks, as fragmentation tends to be. So GM intervention would make sense if still applying damage as a result of destroyed object fragments hitting someone.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I'm just quoting the description. If you have a problem with it and how it's built relative to the description, perhaps you should take it up with the author (Kromm) instead?
PK mentioned in 2010 discussing "Reduced Duration, 1/60, Only after the target leaves the area, -30%;" with Kromm.

I don't think "Reduced Duration" had been published at the time of GURPS Powers so my guess is Kromm had intended for the immediate cessation of Klutziness as soon as someone left the area, it may have been worked into the pricing of "Environmental, Touching ground within area".

Since it says "Those who leave the area are free of the Affliction, but must make a new resistance roll if they return" though, it sounds like "free of" is referring to the persistent need to make a DX roll every second, not the MoS minutes of being klutzy if you had failed your resistance roll during your time on the ice.

I don't have a problem with the build/description, I know if I get thrown off balance on ice, I can be shook up about it for some time after and don't immediately get my coordination back the second I step off. Maybe not for a full minute, which might be why Kromm added RD in the Powers errata.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Presumably as the rules describe. Bullets are affected by DR, like it was DR? Don't try to treat them as mini-PCs hurled at high velocities. It will just hurt your brain.
There isn't any difference. If you attack force field DR and inflict more than the DR, you make a hole small enough to get through, which is exactly how a bullet shooting through a force field works.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Green Lantern disagrees. All his effects are translucent regardless of what ability he's using. Spidey can make his webs either a solid barrier or a holey one, which I suspect is below the resolution of an enhancement.
B109 "impedes vision" mentioned under Permeable though not Rigid.

P42 on Binding: "if the persistent effect forms a vision-impeding barrier (like dense spider webs), stack Wall (+30% or +60%) on top of that."

"Impeding" may not mean "totally stopping" (opaque) so I agree this may merely mean translucent. I'm not sure exactly how translucent, but at bare minimum I think we should agree that looking through a "Wall" should at least incur -1 to perception rolls like a single level of obscure.

If it doesn't incur some kind of penalty then it isn't really impeding vision. You'd probably need "No Signature" on your Wall for invisible walls that don't create vision penalties.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If you want to rely on that effect, buy it as an advantage. It's beyond being game world side effect and powerful enough to justify being worth points. Certainly, by RAW, the Area and Aura/Persistent enhancements were not intended to provide DR.
It's not DR any more than Power Parry is DR. Knocking back an attacker increases the distance between you, so you're just increasing the distance. If it happens to be enough to increase the distance beyond Max then the attack will fall short of you, but it would take a lot of damage to stop bullets unless they were already being shot from near-terminal range anyway (as in, if shot from 1 yard further, the bullet would normally drop in the hex in front of you).

If I threw down "Affliction: Warp, Area Effect, Persistant" in the middle of a hallway so that anything traveled down that hallway gets teleported into a nearby volcano, are you thinking bullets fired down that hallway somehow would not be teleported until after they went across that field and shot what was on the other side?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Flame area aura is actually more expensive than cr knock back area aura, so it should provide less benefit, yet you're essentially arguing the lesser aura can provide features that the more expensive aura would not.
This is a more general argument for you to have about the pricing comparison between Burning Attack and Crushing Attack. The former does risk infernos that consume your valuable salvage loot, but it also allows you to set infernos that will continue to consume enemy fortresses when you're long gone, so that probably balances out.
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:22 AM   #74
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Defensive Auras

I generally take No Incendiary Effect (-10%) or tight beam if I have a character using a burning attack (unless the character is meant to have disastrous powers). Otherwise, bad things happen when you start using 10d+ attacks.
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:23 AM   #75
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

I'm wondering if all flame attacks should extra-flammable. "No incendiary" covers stuff like frostbite, so basic Burning could cover stuff that could eventually cause fires like lightning/electricity so shooting actual flames should probably be extra-incendiary.
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Old 12-11-2018, 10:26 AM   #76
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
attack powers always target obvious foes first
You're missing the first part - it doesn't go after anyone until you lose control of the power.

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Bullet Travel, Tactical Shooting 32
I don't have that, perhaps you could quote what you're referring to?

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I can't find her in basic set, what book's she in?
She was an iconic Supers character under 3e. There have been other "aura" characters, she's just an obvious "my flames give me protection from projectiles" example. Yes, it's 3e, but the mechanics are similar for the abilities we're discussing.

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Why wouldn't they?
Because it's not part of the game mechanics? Furthermore, it wouldn't make a good general rule. Let's say I'm firing a projectile at the Human Torch. Perhaps it disintegrates. Would another flame attack have the same effect? Would a laser? You can take the same Innate Attack and describe it as either a laser, flame, or hot lead projectile from a game mechanics perspective, so you would expect it to be treated the same by the game mechanics.

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if you plasma-roast a bullet into a fine lead mist, it's going to lose some of its penetrating power.
Perhaps it will hit you as plasma backwash at that point. Again, you're using game world physics rather than game mechanics to justify free abilities. If an ability gives you a game world effect, buy the game mechanic to support it.

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There isn't any sentience or decision-making unless you give it orders using Selective Area, but there is the effect of it effectively taking a turn against anything which enters it, and all examples I've seen imply you resolve that as soon as the Aura's AE is entered.
At best it implies that it would be resolved against an NPC that enters the area during a move action.

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Sounds good. We could even go with 10,000 if you want, just so long as we agree there should probably be some amount of damage which can accomplish it. The amount needed to vaporize bullets to the point of being harmless could be very expensive. "Melt snowballs into steam" might be a better ballpark figure since that takes less heat than melting bullets into lead vapor.
As long as it's the same PV as the defense you're buying in a stealth fashion it doesn't really matter... Of course, you shouldn't get double duty for your points. Call it the "I'm buying DR as part of my innate attack" and price it such that the cost is equal to buying DR.

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You're destroying the implement of the attack. If the ogre wielding a club has his club burned into ash while running through your firewall, he can't hit you with that club. No matter how fast he runs through the fire, this won't protect his club from being burned. Throwing the club wouldn't either. Nor firing his club with an arbalest.
How many times are you applying that area damage? Normally you'd apply it once to the NPC, not as an attack against every individual piece of equipment. It makes it quite a bit more powerful if you can multiply the damage per equipment, and more powerful as you can further break everything down into components. If you're doing armor by parts, armor may be 10 pieces, with a few weapons. Hey, why not treat each arrow as an individual arrow? Aura wouldn't normally protect you (as you get hit to resolve the Aura damage).


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If you want to cap AE Aura flashes to one per second instead of "one per foe per second" I'd think it's a great idea, though that doesn't seem how Aura of Power works.
We'd have to get clarification.

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Since it says "Those who leave the area are free of the Affliction, but must make a new resistance roll if they return" though, it sounds like "free of" is referring to the persistent need to make a DX roll every second, not the MoS minutes of being klutzy if you had failed your resistance roll during your time on the ice.
If you're still affected by it, it doesn't really meet the description of "free", but really I'd apply different limitation to make the ability work like that so the point probably isn't worth continuing.

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B109 "impedes vision" mentioned under Permeable though not Rigid.
We were discussing if they were noticeable, rather than vision blocking.

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"Impeding" may not mean "totally stopping" (opaque) so I agree this may merely mean translucent. I'm not sure exactly how translucent, but at bare minimum I think we should agree that looking through a "Wall" should at least incur -1 to perception rolls like a single level of obscure.
Sure, there's "Low/No Signature" for abilities that aren't noticeable, the default which is noticeable but not enough for a penalty, and you can link it to Obscure if you impair vision enough to be point worthy. Buy the game mechanic you want to happen in the game world.

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It's not DR any more than Power Parry is DR. Knocking back an attacker increases the distance between you, so you're just increasing the distance.
We've been over this. I disagree with the notion of "I've creatively described why I should get X points of powers that aren't normally provided the trait's I've purchased".

Game design is: you describe the game effects, then buy the traits that give you those game effects. You don't buy traits and use them to other "free" traits. GMs are around to reject things like that.

Trying to apply pieces of rules that would normally apply maneuvers, PCs, or items individually, in a fairly haphazardly, like they were all the same thing, while ignoring context isn't the solution.

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If I threw down "Affliction: Warp, Area Effect, Persistant" in the middle of a hallway so that anything traveled down that hallway gets teleported into a nearby volcano, are you thinking bullets fired down that hallway somehow would not be teleported until after they went across that field and shot what was on the other side?
Depends on the ability. Blink generally preserves momentum. A warp tunnel is more like a link between two places, effectively creating a 0 distance short cut. Warp usually matches momentum so you can 'port out of a moving vehicle to a sidewalk with suddenly becoming a projectile. Retains momentum was a limitation previously since you can accidentally injure whatever is warping.

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This is a more general argument for you to have about the pricing comparison between Burning Attack and Crushing Attack. The former does risk infernos that consume your valuable salvage loot, but it also allows you to set infernos that will continue to consume enemy fortresses when you're long gone, so that probably balances out.
Sure, and that's built into the description of the trait. "Protects from projectiles" isn't built into the rules of anything you're building into the trait, nor is it insignificant enough to just award it for creativity. It's like giving a smoke cloud a free choking attack because it's described as dense smoke. After all, inhalation is actually more dangerous than fire...

Last edited by naloth; 12-11-2018 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:06 PM   #77
Plane
 
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Default Re: Defensive Auras

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
it doesn't go after anyone until you lose control of the power.
That was AH's context.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I don't have that, perhaps you could quote what you're referring to?
"Bullets don’t reach their target instantly; as a rough guide, a handgun projectile takes (Range in yards)/250 seconds and a rifle projectile takes (Range in yards)/600 seconds to arrive, rounding up"

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
She was an iconic Supers character under 3e. There have been other "aura" characters, she's just an obvious "my flames give me protection from projectiles" example. Yes, it's 3e, but the mechanics are similar for the abilities we're discussing.
Her DR of 10 (Supers 111) applies at all times, and is entirely in addition to the DR provided by "Body of Fire 10" (Supers 36) against fire attacks and bullets (which is DR 5 and DR 2 for her) which she can only access while flying.

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You can take the same Innate Attack and describe it as either a laser, flame, or hot lead projectile from a game mechanics perspective, so you would expect it to be treated the same by the game mechanics.
Hot lead would be a Link/Followup to Burning, or Incendiary to non-Burning.

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Perhaps it will hit you as plasma backwash at that point.
Wouldn't that be different than the piercing attack it originally took the form of?

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Again, you're using game world physics rather than game mechanics to justify free abilities. If an ability gives you a game world effect, buy the game mechanic to support it.
Could be s a drawback of taking "Reload" Limited Use, B112"The GM determines the weight and cost of the ammunition." so it is this limitation which gives weight to your ammo and allows it to be a target of things like knockback.

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At best it implies that it would be resolved against an NPC that enters the area during a move action.
But not an NPC who is launched into the area during another NPC's Attack action?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
As long as it's the same PV as the defense you're buying in a stealth fashion it doesn't really matter... Of course, you shouldn't get double duty for your points. Call it the "I'm buying DR as part of my innate attack" and price it such that the cost is equal to buying DR.
I don't think it's double-duty if it's already covered under the mechanics of an ability. We aren't told that Wall-enhanced Innate Attacks must purchase a Link to Obscure despite it clearly obstructing vision to some degree, for example.

Due to problems like DR being reduced by Corrosive Attack and it "healing", I don't know that you could design a DR that functions like Power Parry does, which seems like a closer match for how knockback v kinetic attacks would work. Acid has mass and a blob of acid could probably be knocked back by kinetic impact, yet conceptually it would be strange for the acid to compromise the outward force in the process.

"double duty for your points" is part of what "Using Abilities at Default" covers, so if you don't like the approach of using Power Parry as a basis, this could be another way. This would require some modification outside the usual guidelines though, since you normally spend FP and a Ready maneuver to get temporary DR this way, and those shouldn't be requirements for an Aura's automatic mitigation of incoming bodies. Instead it should be used to generate a success roll to see if your ability competently reacts to an incoming attack.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
How many times are you applying that area damage? Normally you'd apply it once to the NPC, not as an attack against every individual piece of equipment. It makes it quite a bit more powerful if you can multiply the damage per equipment, and more powerful as you can further break everything down into components. If you're doing armor by parts, armor may be 10 pieces, with a few weapons. Hey, why not treat each arrow as an individual arrow? Aura wouldn't normally protect you (as you get hit to resolve the Aura damage).
I think there have been threads previously discussing the divvying of damage to parts other than the torso, it's certainly a broader discussion than this threat. I don't think a fired bullet would still count as a hit location on the body of the shooter, and there shouldn't be any conceptual difference between how rules deal with a fired bullet vs a bullet-sized elf thrown at the speed of a bullet.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
We were discussing if they were noticeable, rather than vision blocking.
I figure something that impedes vision is noticeable, you need an enhancement on Obscure to impede vision without it being noticeable, and I wouldn't want to make Walls even more powerful...

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Sure, there's "Low/No Signature" for abilities that aren't noticeable, the default which is noticeable but not enough for a penalty, and you can link it to Obscure if you impair vision enough to be point worthy. Buy the game mechanic you want to happen in the game world.
Walls impede vision without penalizing it?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
We've been over this. I disagree with the notion of "I've creatively described why I should get X points of powers that aren't normally provided the trait's I've purchased".
Knocking back things is paid for by Crushing Attack. Not needing to make an attack to do that is paid for by Aura. Being able to do it when they near you instead of touch you is paid for by Area Effect.

"My attack is a physical object that can be displaced by kinetic forces" is an inherent aspect of firing kinetic rounds, throwing physical objects like grenades or knives, or shooting arrows from bows or bolts from crossbows. The main question is whether that is purely covered by "Limited Use: Reload", by "Gadget", some combination of the two, or some undefined 0% modifier. If that is a default aspect of kinetic Innate Attacks then you could design some kind of enhancement to make "my attack isn't an object" attacks.

Even stuff like a ball of compressed air (Concussion, Powers 137) would have mass from the gas molecules. There's probably some logical grounds in thinking that anything capable of doing knockback can itself be knocked back without Cosmic exceptions.

If you don't want to deal with the humbuggery of using Knockback rules against the weight of objections, subbing in Power Parry to deal with the force of objects is a simpler house rule. Already-active Area Effects (you made an attack and it is Persistant, or you already turned on your Aura) which are Bombardment should need to roll for a Power Parry based on Bombardment skill, those without it should count as an automatic hit and subtract the damage.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Game design is: you describe the game effects, then buy the traits that give you those game effects. You don't buy traits and use them to other "free" traits. GMs are around to reject things like that.
Are you sure you aren't giving ammunition the free trait of Immunity to Knockback lasting from 1 second to however many seconds it takes to travel from the outer limits of the Area Effect to the center?

Trying to apply pieces of rules that would normally apply maneuvers, PCs, or items individually, in a fairly haphazardly, like they were all the same thing, while ignoring context isn't the solution.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Depends on the ability. Blink generally preserves momentum. A warp tunnel is more like a link between two places, effectively creating a 0 distance short cut. Warp usually matches momentum so you can 'port out of a moving vehicle to a sidewalk with suddenly becoming a projectile. Retains momentum was a limitation previously since you can accidentally injure whatever is warping.
I'm not referring to Warp for the purposes of changing momentum so much as changing the location. If you can alter the location of things entering the field so that they are no longer positioned so that their momentum carries them into the original target, is that not also functioning like DR in neutralizing an attack?

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
"Protects from projectiles" isn't built into the rules of anything you're building into the trait
"relocates objects" is built into what Knockback does.

If a grenade lands next to a character and they don't have time to grab it and throw it, they should be able to Shove it away and still create some space using Knockback. This could create the result of them taking less damage, but isn't like getting free DR.

Ignoring enhancements like Area Effect or Aura, you need to first understand that it's possible to shoot down incoming things using Wait > Attack, or that you can "Innate Attack" without a Wait using a Power Parry...

If you've prepped with Persistent Area Effect, your Area gets an automatic attack against stuff that enters it...

If you've prepped by turning on an Area Effect Aura, your Area gets an automatic attack against stuff that enters it...

Rolls to hit are not needed for AE against stuff in the AE this unless you took Bombardment. If that's too powerful I guess you could both house-rule that
1) non-Bombardment AE should need to roll against skill 16, not automatic hits (or allow that as some kind of -1% limitation)
2) Speed/Range Modifiers also apply to these effective skills instead of just Size Modifiers (opt to discount "not for range or any other factor") consider it a form of exposure time (or make that an added limitation)
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Old 12-11-2018, 02:48 PM   #78
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
"Bullets don’t reach their target instantly; as a rough guide, a handgun projectile takes (Range in yards)/250 seconds and a rifle projectile takes (Range in yards)/600 seconds to arrive, rounding up"
Game world effects, sure.

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Her DR of 10 (Supers 111) applies at all times, and is entirely in addition to the DR provided by "Body of Fire 10" (Supers 36) against fire attacks and bullets (which is DR 5 and DR 2 for her) which she can only access while flying.
You do see the difference in how 3rd specified what protection you got and 4e separated out the mechanics for protection and offense entirely?

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Hot lead would be a Link/Followup to Burning, or Incendiary to non-Burning.
Using your logic, a good explanation should give you the the other attack for free. Using my rule of thumb, you buy what you get.

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Wouldn't that be different than the piercing attack it originally took the form of?
When a GM is house ruling what they want to happen, either is just as valid. The point is that neither are better supported by the rules.

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Could be s a drawback of taking "Reload" Limited Use, B112"The GM determines the weight and cost of the ammunition." so it is this limitation which gives weight to your ammo and allows it to be a target of things like knockback.
That's not how area attacks normally work. They don't multiply in effectiveness against each piece of gear you happen to be carrying.

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But not an NPC who is launched into the area during another NPC's Attack action?
That's a world effect. Why don't you try to describe things in game mechanics (maneuver by maneuver), and we'll see what relevant rules apply? Quite a bit of the problem here is convoluting what you think *should* happen rather than looking at what the traits actually provide via game mechanics.

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I don't think it's double-duty if it's already covered under the mechanics of an ability. We aren't told that Wall-enhanced Innate Attacks must purchase a Link to Obscure despite it clearly obstructing vision to some degree, for example.
Perhaps so you can choose if it's not worth a -1 all the way up to whatever "obscure" factor you need? You obviously do need to buy whatever penalty you plan to impose.

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Due to problems like DR being reduced by Corrosive Attack and it "healing", I don't know that you could design a DR that functions like Power Parry does, which seems like a closer match for how knockback v kinetic attacks would work.
You can come up with modifiers for anything. GMs usually adjudicate if they are fairly priced.

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"double duty for your points" is part of what "Using Abilities at Default" covers, so if you don't like the approach of using Power Parry as a basis, this could be another way. This would require some modification outside the usual guidelines though, since you normally spend FP and a Ready maneuver to get temporary DR this way, and those shouldn't be requirements for an Aura's automatic mitigation of incoming bodies. Instead it should be used to generate a success roll to see if your ability competently reacts to an incoming attack.
You are free to house rule whatever you want. Aura, as written, provides none of these benefits against oncoming attacks.


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Walls impede vision without penalizing it?
You can tell when you're looking through a window, but it's not necessarily makings on the other side harder to see. Especially dirty windows might. Especially clean ones might effectively be "low/no signature".

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Knocking back things is paid for by Crushing Attack. Not needing to make an attack to do that is paid for by Aura. Being able to do it when they near you instead of touch you is paid for by Area Effect.
Knocking back some things -> unless you're getting "flight" for free out of this too, it obviously only works in a selective fashion. Furthermore, it works against "targets" which is a nebulous way of saying "those that the GM deems worthy of treating as affected individuals for the trait". Is someone else's Innate Attack a valid target? Is your "area" a valid target - you've made the case that it's a "thing" now it's in existence and if you can potentially attack other people's innate attacks, certainly they can attack yours as well. Can your area/aura be killed? Why not, you're treating the "intensity" of attacks as HP/DR manifestations.

You don't see the insanity of trying to pull very different mechanics and random bits of rules that apply to different things and different situations?

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"My attack is a physical object that can be displaced by kinetic forces" is an inherent aspect of firing kinetic rounds, throwing physical objects like
And that could be worth a limitation, or not, depending on how much it comes up.

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I'm not referring to Warp for the purposes of changing momentum so much as changing the location. If you can alter the location of things entering the field so that they are no longer positioned so that their momentum carries them into the original target, is that not also functioning like DR in neutralizing an attack?
You mean like a Power Block/Dodge?

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Ignoring enhancements like Area Effect or Aura, you need to first understand that it's possible to shoot down incoming things using Wait > Attack, or that you can "Innate Attack" without a Wait using a Power Parry...
Since your Area guys sound like they need Doesn't Breathe and Pressure Support (since you've argued that air molecules will be displaced away, creating a vacuum around him) not to mention a way to communicate and cope with the light distortion effects... Well, you've complicated buying an area attack in ways that most would never contemplate and required quite a few supplemental abilities simply to avoid instant death.

Personally, I'd avoid that and stick with what abilities actually do rather than venturing into "what ifs" that require and give things never intended to be part of the power.
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Old 12-11-2018, 09:05 PM   #79
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Default Re: Defensive Auras

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You do see the difference in how 3rd specified what protection you got and 4e separated out the mechanics for protection and offense entirely?
No, because Wall is an example of unified mechanics.

"Aura" doesn't specify protection because alone it wouldn't give any, we only recently learned you could combine it with Area Effect and in that case the example was with Afflictions so we can't expect a disclaimer for how AE Aura Innate Attack works when we don't have an example of it yet.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That's not how area attacks normally work. They don't multiply in effectiveness against each piece of gear you happen to be carrying.
You're no longer carrying shot bullets though... they can't rely on you for Cover.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
That's a world effect. Why don't you try to describe things in game mechanics (maneuver by maneuver), and we'll see what relevant rules apply? Quite a bit of the problem here is convoluting what you think *should* happen rather than looking at what the traits actually provide via game mechanics.
I already did a breakdown with how MA106 "Holding a Foe at Bay" guidelines can be used here. "a thrusting attack against an enemy who tries to close with you" is essentially what Crushing Attack (Aura, Area Effect) does, it's basically a Stop Thrust, because Auras function like Waits and immediately interrupt turns to harm those that trigger them, just like hitting Spines or walking into a Persistent AE.

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Perhaps so you can choose if it's not worth a -1 all the way up to whatever "obscure" factor you need? You obviously do need to buy whatever penalty you plan to impose.
Is that obvious? Wall makes no mention of mandatory purchase of Obscure.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You are free to house rule whatever you want. Aura, as written, provides none of these benefits against oncoming attacks.
The issue here is whether or not a Crushing Attack can cause knockback to an incoming attacker/projectile.

Aura/Area Effect just controls the timing and cost of doing so.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You can tell when you're looking through a window, but it's not necessarily makings on the other side harder to see.
If they're not harder to see then is "impede" the right word to use for it? I can tell I'm looking through my spectacles but they don't impede my vision, they enhance it.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Knocking back some things -> unless you're getting "flight" for free out of this too, it obviously only works in a selective fashion.
There's technically nothing I know of stopping you from hitting yourself with a Crushing Attack and moving via your own attack's Knockback, if that's what you're referring to. That's not the same as actually having the Flight advantage.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Furthermore, it works against "targets" which is a nebulous way of saying "those that the GM deems worthy of treating as affected individuals for the trait". Is someone else's Innate Attack a valid target?
If it has an implementing object (like a bullet) then it's certainly a target. I can grab a bullet off the ground, I can stomp on a bullet.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Is your "area" a valid target - you've made the case that it's a "thing" now it's in existence and if you can potentially attack other people's innate attacks, certainly they can attack yours as well. Can your area/aura be killed? Why not, you're treating the "intensity" of attacks as HP/DR manifestations.
That would be dependent on whether Gadget / Limited Use was applied to the AE and how the GM assessed those modifiers.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
You mean like a Power Block/Dodge?
No, sorry I should have written Affliction: Warp there, not Warp. More of a Power Parry, since each level of Affliction negates one die of damage.

If you had Affliction (Advantage: Warp, Melee, Aura, Area Effect) any bullets entering your area would be immediately teleported away...

If "immediate" is too powerful an interpretation of how Aura works to interrupt turns you can house rule using Power Parry reductions instead. Perhaps a low-level affliction has only managed to teleport 1/2 to 1/3 of the bullet away by the time it crosses the AE, for example.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Since your Area guys sound like they need Doesn't Breathe and Pressure Support (since you've argued that air molecules will be displaced away, creating a vacuum around him)
The "Selective Area" enhancement would useful for avoiding problems like this. Air molecules (or even more understandable minutiae like raindrops and snowflakes) do raise a question about what exactly it is that would trigger attacks from entering an Innate Attack (Area Effect, Persistent) field that wasn't so Selective.

This is why "Bombardment" helps to deal with the problem because small stuff wouldn't be hit very often, and another reason you could house-rule that non-limited works like Bombardment skill 16.

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
you've complicated buying an area attack in ways that most would never contemplate and required quite a few supplemental abilities simply to avoid instant death.
A cheap enhancement or a limitation would solve the air molecule / raindrop / snowflake dilemma, no need for external abilities.
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Old 12-12-2018, 02:34 PM   #80
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Ok, so your whole argument is that Area provides DR or some other rules defined defensive value. Simply quote that from the rules, with the quantity of protection Area provides in terms of DR, bonus HP, penalties to shoot, or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
No, because Wall is an example of unified mechanics.
How so?

Rigid is a barrier, it doesn't "obscure" or "afflict", as it blocks vision by being a material barrier. You could enhance it to make it less noticeable (No/Low Signature) but otherwise you get a physical, solid wall with a fix DR/HP.

Permeable is area damage. It doesn't provide DR and there's no game mechanic for it stopping an innate or any other type of attack.

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I already did a breakdown with how MA106 "Holding a Foe at Bay" guidelines can be used here. "a thrusting attack against an enemy who tries to close with you" is essentially what Crushing Attack (Aura, Area Effect) does, it's basically a Stop Thrust, because Auras function like Waits and immediately interrupt turns to harm those that trigger them, just like hitting Spines or walking into a Persistent AE.
You can say it's basically a plant or mineral, but since you ignored all the ways I pointed out how is not like that example, it's just another case of pulling a few sentences out of context.

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Is that obvious? Wall makes no mention of mandatory purchase of Obscure.
For a solid barrier you wouldn't (and arguably couldn't - it already blocks vision as a barrier). For a permeable one, you obviously would since it doesn't mention blocking vision.

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The issue here is whether or not a Crushing Attack can cause knockback to an incoming attacker/projectile.
You mean if an attack can protect you when the attack says nothing about protecting you. I'd go with "no" since it's not part of the effect.

Let's look at it another way. Cyclops fires a cone effect optic blast with concussion against 3 bad guys. In the same second, one bad guy fires his gun at Cyclops. Because of turn order, we'll resolve one than the other and the possibility of the attacks interfering with each other (barring a power parry) is nil. If Cyclops had an area attack and zapped all 3 (no duration), same deal. Obviously neither area nor cone provide anti-projectile defense.

Presumably we agree on those game mechanics. Does your argument now shift to duration?

The rules may seem to cause 'game world' inconsistencies, but that's only if you don't buy a combination of traits that meets your expectations.

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There's technically nothing I know of stopping you from hitting yourself with a Crushing Attack and moving via your own attack's Knockback, if that's what you're referring to. That's not the same as actually having the Flight advantage.
If you want to take everything to the absurd the ground would be affected by your "aura" causing you to bounce with each touch.

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If you had Affliction (Advantage: Warp, Melee, Aura, Area Effect) any bullets entering your area would be immediately teleported away...
Arugably along with the air, pressure, and potentially other useful things. Perhaps the power would short circuit trying to affect the ground you're touching?

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The "Selective Area" enhancement would useful for avoiding problems like this. Air molecules (or even more understandable minutiae like raindrops and snowflakes) do raise a question about what exactly it is that would trigger attacks from entering an Innate Attack (Area Effect, Persistent) field that wasn't so Selective.
Sure, but the character would need to decide what to omit... presumably on their turn or at the beginning of each. Selective Area allows control, it doesn't make the ability sentient and proactive.
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