Logistically Viable Weapons AtE

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by ericthered

...


But they were not the primary weapons. Napoleonic Cavalry used the lance and the saber as their primary weapons. the pistols fired one or two shots, and the cavalry faced off against superior numbers in most cases.

And any tool can be used wrong. And as stated, cavalry was used to great and decisive effect all over the eastern front of WWI. This wasn't just dragoon style fighting. It was charges. Not it every case, but it happened a lot. The weapon that stopped the charge as a tactic in WWI was the machine gun. And the machine gun requires excellent logistics. ...

Sorry the too above are linked.

Even by the early C19th cavalry charging against infantry in all but the most favorable situations was a bad idea, so its not really a case that cavalry were regularly and successfully charging home against riflemen 100 years later unless there was machine gun in play.

Have you got cites of these successful charges happening a lot? As opposed to cavalry being used a lot because they are good mobile force for fighting in the more open eastern front context. But actually most of the time they fought like mobile infantry.

EDIT: sorry just to say I'm not claiming it never happened, and if it happened it happened more often in the east, just that I don't think it happened as much as you imply.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There are hundreds of billions of bullets, all of which are more resistant to the end of the world than the billions of people. Worrying about running out of ammo quickly seems to be solving the wrong problem.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2003...l-of-democracy

In WWII the United states furnished 47 Billion rounds of ammunition to the army and to foreign allies. The axis had under 8 million military deaths. which means over six thousand bullets were produced for every kill. I suspect over half of those were fired. The number of remaining bullets also depends on how your world ended. A nuclear conflagration probably destroys most of the biggest ammo caches. Things fall apart involves conflicts that go through most of your ammunition. And AtE is set a time after the end, not during it. In this time, bullets are consumed, while fire arms are not. These factors vary, but the default for AtE is that bullets are precious.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Sorry the two above are linked.

They really are, I agree. And if you have the economics to mass produce good bullets, you should certainly do so. One of the wonderful things of fiction is to produce situations that don't exist naturally in history.

Even by the early C19th cavalry charging against infantry in all but the most favorable situations was a bad idea, so its not really a case that cavalry were regularly and successfully charging home against riflemen 100 years later unless there was machine gun in play.

Have you got cites of these successful charges happening a lot? As opposed to cavalry being used a lot because they are good mobile force for fighting in the more open eastern front context. But actually most of the time they fought like mobile infantry.

I'm going to quibble with the claim that early C19th cavalry charging against infantry was a bad idea in all but the most favorable situations. Cavalry was always a unit that you deployed carefully and picked your battles for. They are expensive and can save you in a pickle. When I look at the way cavalry was outfitted in the Napoleonic wars, in the US civil war, and in the Crimean, I have no doubt they were used to charge infantry and especially artillery. The charge of the light brigade was routine until they were given the wrong target. Even then, they successfully overran their target, and had their sister battalion, the heavy brigade, followed up, the battle would have been over there and then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_...Napoleonic_era

I don't have any stats for cavalry on the eastern front of world war 1. I've merely been following The Great War you tube channel, and it comes up. The main video on the subject is :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDFZPIl0JtE

But that focuses mainly on the western front, and its really just proof that before world war I the cavalry charge was deeply entrenched in military doctrine and not at all abandoned. I can't find all the times when the eastern front charges come up, (actually, I can't find any because that would involve combing hours of footage), but they are in there.

Against true TL6 troops who aren't counting bullets, cavalry charges are almost always a bad idea, and the exceptions are just that. I will concede this freely. But I will hold to the claim that against muzzle loading troops, and against those who don't have hundred of bullets to use for covering fire, the cavalry charge remains a strong weapon capable of deciding battles.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Against true TL6 troops who aren't counting bullets, cavalry charges are almost always a bad idea, and the exceptions are just that. I will concede this freely. But I will hold to the claim that against muzzle loading troops, and against those who don't have hundred of bullets to use for covering fire, the cavalry charge remains a strong weapon capable of deciding battles.

Agreed completely. People overestimate the effectiveness of modern weaponry and neglect to examine the training, logistics, and tactics that are needed to make them useful. An experienced and disciplined force with primitive weapons will win against a poorly supported force with modern weapons and this will be even more noticeable in an AtE setting. For thousands of years the key to a successful cavalry charge is in picking the right moment to engage regardless of what weapons the enemy has. The most advanced weapons in the world are useless if the men wielding them aren't in a position to deploy them properly. An experienced force can exploit this no matter what weapons they are given.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Agreed completely. People overestimate the effectiveness of modern weaponry and neglect to examine the training, logistics, and tactics that are needed to make them useful. An experienced and disciplined force with primitive weapons will win against a poorly supported force with modern weapons and this will be even more noticeable in an AtE setting. For thousands of years the key to a successful cavalry charge is in picking the right moment to engage regardless of what weapons the enemy has. The most advanced weapons in the world are useless if the men wielding them aren't in a position to deploy them properly. An experienced force can exploit this no matter what weapons they are given.

That certainly seems an 'agreement' that is wildly different from and even in contradiction to the statement it claims to be agreeing with.

[DanHoward]

Spend all of your resources on training and logistics. The other stuff will come as you expand your influence and territory.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Things fall apart involves conflicts that go through most of your ammunition. And AtE is set a time after the end, not during it. In this time, bullets are consumed, while fire arms are not. These factors vary, but the default for AtE is that bullets are precious.

Absolutely, trillions of bullets existing in the world is a very different thing to any given warlord having access to trillions of bullets indefinitely. Even 10,000 bullets between 100 men is only enough for 100 shots each, which is a lot for any given battle, but would quickly be depleted by a long campaign with multiple encounters.

Even then, this assumes the troops are already reasonably good shots when they first get the weapons. Training them in target practise uses up ammo. Not training them means they're going to have very poor Guns skill and so get very little done with their 100 bullets, and so on.

If every bullet spent is a bullet lost forever, I doubt any stockpile of ammunition would ever really be enough for long-term large-scale conflict.

Maybe they'd need to use smoothbore muzzleloaders for regular target practise or hunting and proper bullets for battle? It might cause some problems if their practise weapons are slightly different to their battlefield weapons, but it might be the best available compromise.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

As High Tech noted, air rifles were a functional technology in the late 18th century.

Not much good for battle but use of even cheap air rifles can allow practice of sight picture, trigger control, breath control, and other talents that can save a lot of time in training with gunpowder weapons. Pellets are cheap and easy to manufacture (cast, then swage for proper diameter) and air costs a lot less than even black powder. Pellet are also smaller (c. 7-10 grains a round -- vs. 55 for a .22 Long Rifle).

I also suggest that a Remington Rolling Block is a good deal -- should be able to use a very crude cartridge case that would limit the cost in $ and high tech. See the Snider for an example of a case that has a cast base (IIRC) and a "body" made up of would [typo -- meant to say "wound"] strips of brass.

[(E)]

Originally Posted by Minuteman37

My big questions
1.) What supplementary weapons should be used in conjunction with the Rifle. Assuming It's matured into it's Enfield form.
2.) On the continuum from crude Flintlock to Refined Bolt-action War Winner Should the PCs enter on. (The answer is highly circumstantial I know)
3.) Should this Rifle ultimately make the transformation to semi/fully-automatic or stay bolt-action?

My thoughts
1) a sniper variant and a varient for rifle propelled grenades would be fairly simple a few sighting devices could be salvaged. A mixture of "unofficial" small arms, explosives and melee weapons akin to WW1 trench weapons could work. The Hodge podge feel would also suit AtE. Next on the list are more support type weapons, machine guns, artillery, flamethrowers etc.

2) maybe a single shot cartridge rifle of whatever action as the "average" weapon. Very poor PCs get flintlocks, poor PCs get percussion cap weapons, well off PCs get bolt actions, very well off PCs get semi autos?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by (E)

2) maybe a single shot cartridge rifle of whatever action as the "average" weapon. Very poor PCs get flintlocks, poor PCs get percussion cap weapons, well off PCs get bolt actions, very well off PCs get semi autos?

Do you bother to mass produce percussion caps when the main ammunition demand is for cartridges?

(I don't think you'll find 'single shot cartridge rifle' being much of a thing, though, assuming you mean hard cartridges. The major motivation for that sort of ammo is enabling feed mechanisms.)

[(E)]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Do you bother to mass produce percussion caps when the main ammunition demand is for cartridges?

(I don't think you'll find 'single shot cartridge rifle' being much of a thing, though, assuming you mean hard cartridges. The major motivation for that sort of ammo is enabling feed mechanisms.)

All true but AtE is a bit messier than history, village A might have muzzleloaders, village B might have a range of older hunting weapons and the PC ends up with a break action or town C might be producing percussion caps locally etc.