building things with the rules; size; weight

[Johnny Angel]

After a few discussions elsewhere, I know that having a SM is neither and advantage nor a disadvantage. I think I understand why; while you would have the advantage of being able to purchase ST cheaper, you're also easier to hit.


I brought up the subject of weight as it relates to a race. In some settings, elves would be considered skinny compared to humans, but they would not have the 'skinny' disadvantage because they would be normal weight for their race.

Would such an elf incur the penalties -such as having trouble resisting knockback- of having a lower weight (i.e. being 'skinny') as a result of having a lower racial weight? I suppose what I'm saying is would they have the effects of the 'skinny' disadvantage, but without actually having 'skinny' as a disadvantage due to their naturally lower weight?

Could an elf then still take 'skinny' as a disadvantage and be skinny by even elf standards? If so, it seems as though the end result would be similar to a human taking the 'skinny' disadvantage twice and stacking the effects. A 'skinny' skinny elf would have more trouble resisting knockback than a 'skinny' human.

[Johnny Angel]

Looking at the rules in basic again, I think perhaps I should give an example.
This example could use any race, but since I mentioned elves, I will use them.

If you look at the build table on page 18 of Characters, there is a list of ranges weight based on build and ST.

Looking at 'skinny' we see that someone would have approximately 2/3 the average weight for their ST. If a elves were racially skinny, this would mean that the average elf would weigh somewhere between 80-120 lbs; putting the average at around 100 lbs.

This would mean that an elf -who is already racially skinny- who takes the skinny disadvantage would weight somewhere around 67 lbs; the available range would be somewhere between 53 lbs and 80 lbs. An elf would have trouble disguising themselves as human due to build differences, but not have trouble disguising themselves as a different elf.

Would/could a creature would have 'skinny (racial)' as a disadvantage as well as 'skinny' as a disadvantage? Essentially allowing someone of that race to take skinny a second time if they wanted to and getting the traits associated with that disadvantage a second time (even more of a penalty to resist knockback, more limited ST, and -if using the alternate rules on pg 19- more speed.) In such a case, a skinny elf would have trouble disguising themselves as a different elf, and have twice as much trouble trying to pass for a human.

So, what happens with an overweight elf who is racially skinny? You'd have to look at the weight chart; you'd have 130% of the average weight for someone of your race, so an overweight elf who was naturally skinny would weigh around 130 pounds which would put them at the average range for a human of their size. This would mean than an overweight elf would have trouble disguising themselves as a different elf, but they wouldn't get a penalty based on build to pass as a human.

Likewise, a fat elf would be between average and overweight if you use the human scale; a fat elf would be treated as having the overweight disadvantage instead of as having the fat disadvantage. A very fat elf would be treated as being fat. The point costs would remain the same though.

Alternatively, I suppose you could just cancel out some of the conflicting traits. Which is essentially what it seems like I'm doing anyway. The only problem I see is that it creates a system in which buying off the racial trait of being skinny too cheap. Although, I suppose that if you do the math, it works out the same. Skinny would be worth -5 as a racial trait; an overweight elf would net a -4 for being overweight; a fat elf would net a -2 for being fat, and a very fat elf would net a total of 0 for being very fat.

[trooper6]

Skinny is an actual disadvantage, and it implies that you are unhealthily underweight, not just that you are slim. If you notice on B18, there is overlap between the weights for Skinny and Average. None of the Elven templates I have seen so far have included Skinny as a Disad. I would just say that in general, elves are slimmer than humans, i.e. they fall on the far lower end of the average weight scale (which overlaps with skinny). This still allows an elf to take the Skinny disad and move into unhealthily underweight even for elves.

Skinny the disad is not the same as slim. Just as stocky (as in dwarves) is not the same as Overweight.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Skinny is an actual disadvantage, and it implies that you are unhealthily underweight, not just that you are slim. If you notice on B18, there is overlap between the weights for Skinny and Average. None of the Elven templates I have seen so far have included Skinny as a Disad. I would just say that in general, elves are slimmer than humans, i.e. they fall on the far lower end of the average weight scale (which overlaps with skinny). This still allows an elf to take the Skinny disad and move into unhealthily underweight even for elves.

Skinny the disad is not the same as slim. Just as stocky (as in dwarves) is not the same as Overweight.

I understand what you're saying. I'm curious about races (or creatures) who would be at the range which would be considered 'skinny' by human standards or lighter than normal for their ST. For example, an avian race would naturally be lighter due to having less dense bones. They might have trouble resisting knockback. Likewise, someone of that race who was skinny would be even lighter. I'm unsure of how to model something like that or if it has a point value.


edit: Dwarves are a good example. They are naturally stocky, so I imagine they would naturally resist knockback due to how they are built and how their center of gravity is balanced. In some settings (D&D for example) Dwarves have a slower move speed due to being stocky as well. They don't get the floating bonus though. I'm unsure how to place a value on such a thing.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

I understand what you're saying. I'm curious about races (or creatures) who would be at the range which would be considered 'skinny' by human standards or lighter than normal for their ST. For example, an avian race would naturally be lighter due to having less dense bones. They might have trouble resisting knockback. Likewise, someone of that race who was skinny would be even lighter. I'm unsure of how to model something like that or if it has a point value.


edit: Dwarves are a good example. They are naturally stocky, so I imagine they would naturally resist knockback due to how they are built and how their center of gravity is balanced. In some settings (D&D for example) Dwarves have a slower move speed due to being stocky as well. They don't get the floating bonus though. I'm unsure how to place a value on such a thing.

Look at how dwarves are modeled in the templates in the books.

In Banestorm, they say that dwarves tend to be shorter and heavier than humans, but that is all muscle. They slap on a +2ST for the racial template. And there you go. Dwarves are naturally a bit stronger, which means better able to resist knockback than the average human. If you want them to move slower, add -1 Move as a racial disad.

As for creatures that are really light...some sort of avian race...I suspect they have lower strengths. I certainly can't imagine them carrying a lot of stuff. If you want them to still have some damage in combat it depends.

You can give your birdmen -4ST, then add some striking ST and HP. Maybe brawling as a racial skill to give them the bonus to damage when they use their talons. That sort of thing.

Skinny and Overweight are not really what you are looking for. You are looking for "easier to knockback" i.e. lower ST, or "harder to knockback" i.e. higher ST.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Look at how dwarves are modeled in the templates in the books.

In Banestorm, they say that dwarves tend to be shorter and heavier than humans, but that is all muscle. They slap on a +2ST for the racial template. And there you go. Dwarves are naturally a bit stronger, which means better able to resist knockback than the average human. If you want them to move slower, add -1 Move as a racial disad.

As for creatures that are really light...some sort of avian race...I suspect they have lower strengths. I certainly can't imagine them carrying a lot of stuff. If you want them to still have some damage in combat it depends.

You can give your birdmen -4ST, then add some striking ST and HP. Maybe brawling as a racial skill to give them the bonus to damage when they use their talons. That sort of thing.

Skinny and Overweight are not really what you are looking for. You are looking for "easier to knockback" i.e. lower ST, or "harder to knockback" i.e. higher ST.

I think my main problem is that I'm not quite fluent on how to read/write things in the sense that GURPS views things. After spending so much time with a different system, it's hard to get out of the already established mindset of how to model things

I'm still somewhat stuck on the skinny thing though. I completely understand what you are saying, but how would you model someone who was considered skinny even by the standards of a race who was skinny as a whole?

Bringing up the skinny elf example again. If elves were universally skinny, but a particular elf were even skinnier (very skinny) would it be reasonable to allow that character to stack another instance of skinny on top of the racial trait of being skinny? I know that you normally can't double up on certain disadvantages, but, in such a case, would it be ok to allow it?

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

I think my main problem is that I'm not quite fluent on how to read/write things in the sense that GURPS views things. After spending so much time with a different system, it's hard to get out of the already established mindset of how to model things

I'm still somewhat stuck on the skinny thing though. I completely understand what you are saying, but how would you model someone who was considered skinny even by the standards of a race who was skinny as a whole?

Bringing up the skinny elf example again. If elves were universally skinny, but a particular elf were even skinnier (very skinny) would it be reasonable to allow that character to stack another instance of skinny on top of the racial trait of being skinny? I know that you normally can't double up on certain disadvantages, but, in such a case, would it be ok to allow it?

Again, I've never seen elves as Sickly/Frail/Emaciated as a race. But let's say there is a whole race of people who are all generally unhealthily skinny. And you want to model that one particular member of that race is even more unhealthy...perhaps anorexic. Then you should just make a new disad.
Lower the weight even more, lessen knockback even more, lower their HT cap even more, then maybe even give them some other disads to model how truly unhealthy they are.

Because remember, Skinny is not the same as slim or wirey...it means underweight in a not good way.

But if you want that sure you can do it, no problem...just follow the progression from Overweight/Fat/Very Fat in reverse.

ETA: It is totally okay to allow things like that, it is your campaign after all. But just remember that Disads in the book tend to represent more extreme versions than people often have in real life.

ETA Again: I just want to say that there are many many different ways to get the same effect in GURPS, and a lot of which one you go for just comes down to taste/flavor. You want someone to be able to do a 1d burning attack? Could be a Fireball Spell with Magic, could be an Imbuement, could be an innate attack, could be a piece of equipment. You can get it a whole bunch of ways. And it is all good.

[Johnny Angel]

I don't personally necessarily view elves as sickly, but they do tend to be lighter than humans. Which would be covered by being on the lower end of the average as you said.

However, I have seen settings in which elves were viewed as frail in comparison to humans. In older editions of D&D, they naturally had lower constitution if I remember correctly.

Anyway, using what we've talked about, and things I've picked up from the books and other threads, let's see if I can put together a quick racial template.
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http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm...lery/83027.jpg

Nycter

An odd creature looking like a cross between a bat and a halfling peers down at you from where it hangs from the cave ceiling. Its face vhas a pair of slits that extend from the nostrils to just below its eyes, and it has a small tail which ends in a "T" shape.

Nycters average between 2'5"-3' tall, and weigh between 30 and 40 lbs. Their society and culture revolves around the community and their cave, and they have a keen sense of duty to their group, and they feel obligated to contribute to the community. They have wing colors which tend to vary between darker purples, grey, and black. They also typically have body hair which tends to be brown or dark gray. They speak their own language which consists of subsonic and ultrasonic shrieks and noises. They are capable of speaking human languages, but their voices tend to be shrieky and hard on the ears when they do.

Nycter Template [+36 points]
SM -2 [+0]; ST 5 [-50]; Acute Hearing 5 [+5]; Animal Empathy (bats only) [+4]; Flight (cannot hover; wings) [+24]; Scanning Sense (sonar; targeting; extended arc 360) [+29]; Silence 2 [+10]; Speak with Animals (bats only) [+10]; Subsonic Speech [+10]; Super Climbing 1 [+3]; Teeth (sharp teeth) [+1]; Telecommunication (radio; racial; vague) [+3]; Ultrasonic Speech [+10]; Bad Sight (nearsighted)[-25]; Chummy [-5]; Disturbing Voice [-10]; Sense of Duty (large group; home community) [-10]; Alcohol Intolerance (quirk) [-1]; Night Vision 5 [+5]; Parabolic Hearing 2 [+8]; Discriminatory Hearing [+15]


Notes: I deviated somewhat from the original D&D creature, but I tried to keep the racial flavor. One thing I had considered was making them in such a way that they could communicate in both subsonic and ultrasonic, but not normal ranges. I wasn't sure if this would still be a 0 point feature since they'd be able to switch between subsonic and ultrasonic; my gut feeling was that it would be a 5 point feature. Also, I'm not sure if I need telecommunication. I was going for something like sonar (which they have,) but I wanted more range. Also, I wanted their 'hunting mode' of sonar to be different from their ability to communicate with each other over long distances.

[Johnny Angel]

The information pertaining to building non-humanoid creatures (i.e. animals and monsters) seems to be scattered somewhat. Aside from the size and strength table, what other pages are relevant?

On that same token, is there anywhere in the book which talks about how IQ impacts the speed at which a creature learns. Campaigns gives some information pertaining to what animals of various IQs can learn, but I'm unsure if IQ level impacts the speed at which a creature can learn or if the 200 hours per point standard applies regardless of IQ. A little more information about what the learning limits of various IQ levels are would be helpful.

[Diomedes]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

The information pertaining to building non-humanoid creatures (i.e. animals and monsters) seems to be scattered somewhat. Aside from the size and strength table, what other pages are relevant?

On that same token, is there anywhere in the book which talks about how IQ impacts the speed at which a creature learns. Campaigns gives some information pertaining to what animals of various IQs can learn, but I'm unsure if IQ level impacts the speed at which a creature can learn or if the 200 hours per point standard applies regardless of IQ. A little more information about what the learning limits of various IQ levels are would be helpful.

GURPS: Space has a chapter on alien species, and how they fit into biological niches and such.

As for IQ, I don't think it alters the speed of learning, though Talent does for its associated skills.