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Old 06-05-2016, 09:23 PM   #121
tshiggins
 
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Quote:
Originally Posted by (E) View Post
"Good fishing" was a slip of keyboard, "nontoxic fishing" may have been a better choice of words.

(SNIP)

Edit
Another switch.
Not sure about the Salmon's diet on it's return to it spawning grounds either, it may eat other fish that have algal toxins in their system. (Botulism??)
I think I saw this in a National Geographic documentary. IIRC, when the Salmon are swimming upstream to spawn, they don't eat, at all.

It's their last hurrah. They use the physiological resources they already have, run the gauntlet of bears, anglers and changes in the stream, and reach the small, shallow tributaries where they spawn. The females lay the roe as the male fertilizes them, and then both die shortly after that.

The eggs hatch within a few months, and the babies gain strength by eating bugs that fall into the stream. After a few more months, they work their way downstream and out into the ocean, where they live for a number of years (or wind up food for something bigger).

I actually found a nice site:

http://www.marinebio.net/marinescien...on/sarepro.htm
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:19 PM   #122
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Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Had a quick search and saw two articles relating to toxic algal blooms killing salmon. One was killing adult salmon in south America on a largish scale but the article wasn't clear if it was referring to farmed or wild salmon.
http://ecowatch.com/2016/03/10/salmo...l-bloom-chile/

The second article was referring to BC specifically and it noted the juveniles where getting effected.
http://www.timescolonist.com/news/lo...lmon-1.1974899

Edit
Things look grim for salmon in global warming ends, but if they are a desired part of the setting then they could be justified as by the increased rainfall providing "avenues" of cooler water that they exploit.

Edit the second
If salmon where relatively healthy but limited to a few locations (those with a high percentage of forest cover in their catchment)
Then you have locations that can be farmed (less trees and locations that can't be farmed. This may play into the idea of different groups having different ecological priorities. I could also foster trade, a good reason for optimistic technology.
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Old 06-06-2016, 10:48 AM   #123
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

It sounds like contamination of fish would be an issue to research in this setting. So would be deciding what kinds of areas are still aerable, and what are the nodes in what passes for the global transportation network.

The other advantage of this setting is that it has a substitute for Mad Max's 'great desert.' The prairies are drying out, and the tar sands are likely to have been over-exploited, bombed, or both. North, its possible that the Mountain Pine Beetle will be able to descend into the lowlands and eat its way towards Newfoundland if the prairie winters become mild enough; once the trees die, they can burn and something can replace them (there was a CBC article on the potential range of the MPB under global warming ... they used to think it could not survive BC winters, then they thought it would die on the east coast of the Rockies and could not handle the local pine species). Even further north the permafrost will have melted and everyone says that the drunken forests are full of hunters with scoped rifles and sad eyes. South is more desert and mountains, but crawling with more refugees armed with more and better weapons. West is the empty Pacific with exciting storms, and everyone says that Asia is even worse off. So it would give a big playground, with serious obstacles to going outside it (and an excuse to be vague about events in the wider world).

There have to be some good scenarios looking at BC and Washington State/the Salish Sea watershed under different climate change scenarios.

I would be tempted to draw on the BC Old West, which is quite different from the one on the American west coast let alone Texas/AZ/New Mexico. I don't know if I could work in a substitute for the Gold Rush, but finding a way to keep fishing viable might be useful. But travel by water has advantages in BC ... one reason many people were annoyed that BC Ferries was privatized is that for many communities the ferry is their only regular contact with the rest of the province.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshiggins View Post
I think I saw this in a National Geographic documentary. IIRC, when the Salmon are swimming upstream to spawn, they don't eat, at all.

It's their last hurrah. They use the physiological resources they already have, run the gauntlet of bears, anglers and changes in the stream, and reach the small, shallow tributaries where they spawn. The females lay the roe as the male fertilizes them, and then both die shortly after that.

The eggs hatch within a few months, and the babies gain strength by eating bugs that fall into the stream. After a few more months, they work their way downstream and out into the ocean, where they live for a number of years (or wind up food for something bigger).

I actually found a nice site:

http://www.marinebio.net/marinescien...on/sarepro.htm
If you ever have a chance to visit a Pacific stream in spawning season, do. Its very impressive, although all the dead and dying fish (and the raptors and bears preying on them) are not pleasant.
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Last edited by Polydamas; 06-06-2016 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 06-09-2016, 10:05 PM   #124
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Join Date: Jul 2014
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

More thoughts that will hopefully turn into a worked example soon

AtE gold rushes
- Power the remnants of a power network could be a big bonus.
- Fuel, possibly even bio-fuel from the algae?
- Genetics, healthy genetics for crops and livestock
- Information, knowledge is power, especially if pre-End everyone relied on Cloud data storage
- Glass bricks, specific to the end below

Assumptions
- big storms
- warm seas
- Cold dry continents
- ecosystem messed up
- increased erosion improves soil nutrients in some locations.
- if pessimistic then the range of crops available would only be tropical and sub tropical

What isn't present
- Crops that take a long time to grow. Possible exceptions include sugar cane.
- Citrus trees, bees are required.
- If there are no locations with stable temperatures potatoes will be less common or possibly absent. This is more likely in hotter conditions. The potato species that do exist are older hardier varieties. The taewa (maori) potato varieties have all been historically farmed on pacific islands so in theory can handle higher temperatures.
- fruit trees in general are going to be scarce, generally weaker than other trees the harsher weather will damage them or their fruit. The change in weather patterns will affect trees more than annual plants.

Systems

Underground
The risk of Megastorms will seem to suggest that every community will have a secondary food supply if at all possible. Increased rainfall makes hydroelectric a likely if unreliable power source for any crops grown under artificial lights.

Glass bricked greenhouses.
Protection from the harsh weather as well as the radioactive particles stirred up by the storms will be an issue. Greenhouses will have to become tougher to cope. Glass bricks may be a solution smelter from the abundant glass left from before the End (annealing will be required). These greenhouses are likely partially below ground with low curved roofs to minimize the wind profile.
The primary purpose of these greenhouses will be food security and protection of crop genetics.

Fast growing crops.
It is a reasonable assumption that the storm activity combined with glacial action would result in some flood plains having very fertile soil. These areas would be highly susceptible to storm damage so fast growing high energy crops will be desired.
- Fonio 45-60 days
- Some millets around 60 days
- Fast growing maize varieties 42-50 days, hot sunny conditions required though (which match hurricane season).
- some legumes 60 days
- summer squash 60 days
Taro which is somewhat flood resistant may also be planted or maintained as a feral crop.

Range of microclimates
One issue is going to be the huge range of microclimates that exist, a lower snow line away from the ocean and increased water temperatures will mean one valley's successful farm system may be the next valley's famine.

livestock
The range of climates and conditions make generalizations to do with livestock difficult. However faster growing and smaller animals have the highest chance of survival as farm animals. Having high stable temperatures at sea level will benefit parasites so yields will be down.
Pasture quality
This could go either way, less bees mean less non grass species (including many weeds) but more storms mean the nitrogen cycle will be supercharged.
Sheep
- dominant breeds might include "Gulf Coast" with high parasite resistance and "Romney" that can handle a wide range of conditions and have better than average parasite resistance.
- both these breeds produce "strong" wool which is better suited to blankets and carpets as opposed to clothes. Techniques exist for using wool in place of the plastic nylon. This is not limited to textile use either, one example is artificial hips.
Cattle
- Parasites could all but destroy cattle farming. Tropical parasites such as Theileria will find little resistance in non tropical breeds/genetics.
Goats
Browsing species such as goats may be viewed as a threat to the forest by some groups.

Bit of a waffle I'm afraid, I will write up a settlement soon.
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Old 06-10-2016, 03:28 PM   #125
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

On Goats;

Diary goats can be a good replacement if you lose cattle, both for meat and milk.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:02 PM   #126
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

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On Goats;

Diary goats can be a good replacement if you lose cattle, both for meat and milk.
Just because the first bit of french I learned was "Pas de fromage de chevre s'il vous plat" * does not make me biased against goats :) that said there are benefits that goats milk has over cows milk in some uses due to the different protiens.

I used to make pocket money when I was university selling goat meat to the Indian community.

*no goats cheese please.
You can get the milk out of the goat but you can't get the goat out of the milk.
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Old 06-11-2016, 03:47 PM   #127
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

3141*

Assumptions
- If things continue End with nukes

Notes
-3141 is a well off community that benefits from local trade and has a vested interest in the well being of its neighbours.
- The local rock naturally fragments into easily stacked slabs.
- Warm and moist means a high to very high parasite burden, animal yields down.

Description
The old railway bridge has seen better days but it still looks sound. The heavy steel doors in the old tunnel mouth are newer though. The guard recognises you and nods with her usual lack of conversation. The pneumatic machine gun remains pointed in a non threatening direction. The still cool air of tunnel 3141 is a pleasant change from the persistent humid wind that has plagued you for the last week.

Tunnel 3141 benefits considerably from its location, high above a narrow navigable inlet the railway bridge serves as an unloading dock for the traders and travellers who want to get onto the old railway line which is the easiest trail in the area. The steel doors almost completely control inland east-west traffic, a fact the town does not exploit, too much.

Systems

The Tunnel
The old train tunnel is not as heavily utilized for food production as it could be. In the past it has been expanded beyond it's original dimensions showing that when the bombs where falling the residents of the tunnel farmed inside more. Many of the corridors have shelves for mushroom propagation and bales of substrate material are stacked here and there. The artificially lit garden is a remnant of what it used to be due to the difficulty in making high power light bulbs and the unreliable nature of the local hydroelectric power plant. The remaining supply of Pre-End plant spectrum LED panels are carefully stored in case they should ever be needed. Animal pens are located at either end of the tunnel with space for goats, sheep and horses. A small amount of feed is on hand to feed the animals while they shelter from storms. Nearer the eastern end of the tunnel a small area is dimly illuminated by a few light wells. This is where the other livestock are kept, guinea pigs, chickens, rabbits, meal worms, snails and fish. The community is currently without pigs as the result of an unknown ailment that struck last summer. Overall the tunnel produces mushrooms, uses animals to store and convert food and provides shelter for the grazing and browsing livestock. The potential exists for food production to improve but producing food under glass and outside is more efficient.

The Flats
Near the eastern end of the tunnel there is a flood plain that is used for open air crops. Pre-planting and after every storm the area is swept for stray radioactive particles**. While storms and poor weather destroy about a quarter of the crops that are planted on the flats the fertile soil more than makes up for the wasted effort. Leafy green and root vegetables are also grown due to the short time to maturity.

Western Forest

The community has a number of goats and sheep that are grazed in the forested areas to the west of the tunnel, the majority of the animals are goats with just a handful of sheep. Lactating nannies and ewes are shedded off and kept on the pastures to the east of the tunnel so they can be milked. The goats kept for dairy production are descendants of the highly productive “Saanen” breed. About 600-800 litres of milk are produced per animal but due to the specialisation intrinsic to the breed fibre and meat production is low. Most of the shortfall is made up by the sheep flock. Mortality is high among younger animals. Pasture management will likely focus on maintaining an increased grazing height to avoid settled radioactive contamination and L2 parasites. The latter is an enduring and common misconception regarding some parasite's life-cycles.

The Bank

A successful haul several years ago netted the community all the armoured glass out of an old Eastern Union Bank this glass has proved to be resilient enough to withstand the worst storms the area has to offer. This glass is the core of 3141's greenhouse. About a tenth of the greenhouses space is devoted to maintaining seed stock for other plantings. Maintaining crops in isolation has a benefit for the residents of 3141 it allows two different strains of specific plants to be kept. These strains are crossed to produce hybrid seed for other plantings. This hybridisation produces a benefit of 10-30% in the resulting crops, otherwise known as hybrid vigour. The remaining space is divided evenly between utility plantings, high yield crops and gardens that are devoted to providing a variety of produce to improve the health of the community's diet.

Produces
- Cereal, Millet, Fonio and Maize
- Salt
- Legumes, Peas, Several varieties of beans and Lucerne
- Dairy, Sheep and goat milk, cheese and a small amount of milk powder.
- A range of vegetables and plant products including some medicines.

Preserved food

- Salt meat
- Corn meal and millet flour(?)
- Dried beans
- Cheese
- Milk powder

Features
- The tunnel has been made reasonably spacious since the End with individual alcoves and homes carved into the walls. Ample storage and work space exists, many of the residents barter services such as accommodation and meals to travellers.
- Hydroelectric power, while unreliable (heavy rain brings too much debris down the river) sufficient power is generated to charge most smaller devices and support some power intensive machinery.

Local trade

- 3141 Produces Salt, Cheese and usually a modest food surplus which it trades to its neighbours.
- 3141 Imports Coal(?), textiles, fish(?), glass, chemical and tools

Skills present
- Farming
- Animal handling
- Gardening
- Botany
- Pharmacy
- Engineering

Cattle

With the higher temperatures and increased worm burden cattle of "Bos taurus indicus" decent will handle the conditions better, these animals are generally considered poor producers of meat and milk in relation to the the more traditional western "Bos Taurus" breeds.

*I've been watching person of interest

** As in small fragments of highly radioactive metal etc., not the actual subatomic particles.

Apologies for the lack of formatting, no landline due to wind, all had to go through phone's browser.
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Old 06-16-2016, 11:09 PM   #128
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Still no landline so no formatting.

Next up is a shot at the town Doctor's garden. This is what I can think of off the top of my head. But does anyone have any other ideas for medically useful plants?

Medically useful farming
- poppies
- cannabis (easily available anyway)
- sugar or starch rich for alcohol production.
- fibre plant, flax or cotton.
- animals for bones and fat to make soap
- oil rich plants, olive, sunflower, pumpkin, canola etc.
- melon(?) (for penicillin purists)
- antiseptic, garlic, myrtle
- insect repelling, citronella
- anti parasitic,* tobacco, manuka.
- foxglove
- wood for wood alcohol and turpentine.
- most garden herbs have or have claims of a health benefit.
- insect farm. Maggots have their uses.
- hops
- equines, possibly for antivenoms (??) And for faeces for bacterial filtration.

Salvage desired
- dental floss for stitches
- sulphuric acid as an ether precursor
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Last edited by (E); 06-16-2016 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:00 AM   #129
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Honey is a reasonable disinfectant (although the sugar attracts pests) and might be a source of sugar for rehydration solution to treat dysentry and other GI problems. Sugar beets or sugar cane might be an alternative for the later use, but neither is a good garden crop.

Beeswax is useful for many things: sealing, waterproofing, candles/rushlights, glossy finishes ...

Willow for asprin? Some source of caffeine, climate permitting? I would expect that most doctors have a wide range of useless herbal remedies, on the basis of "I don't have anything better and it can't hurt " or "my one textbook says this is an infallible cure!"
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Old 06-22-2016, 08:21 PM   #130
Tallor
 
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

My combination of anxiousness and attention span has been limiting in trying to learn about ATE farming, but I'd like to ask -- if the ATE folk had biofuel-powered trucks, would they use them to move goats to other pastures, or is that sort of a waste of resources?
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