05-09-2013, 09:07 AM | #251 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
Sir_Pudding was replying to this, though...
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05-09-2013, 12:36 PM | #252 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
Yep, if anything I'd say the current cost structure of ST and DR is a bit of an overreaction to the danger that if those things are too cheap then everyone becomes a brick on top of their base concept, which is a real danger when pricing out this stuff, have no doubts on that.
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05-09-2013, 05:35 PM | #253 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
The problem with advantage pricing, as it occurs in GURPS, is that it doesn't actually work for any plausible theory of design.
Players basically pick which abilities they have based on cost vs utility, but the utility function that is actually used isn't the one implied by this thread. There are basically three components to the utility of an ability:
Unfortunately, this doesn't work for advantages, because a given advantage can range from ubiquitous to incredibly rare, and the only available tool for setting-based pricing (unusual background) is one-directional (it can only make abilities more expensive, not cheaper). A cybershell in Transhuman Space can easily wind up paying tens or even hundreds of points for something that in-setting can be had for petty cash. For much the same reason, the prices don't work for mechanical or metagame balance reasons; you can't demand a high price for something that can be had trivially via other means. |
05-09-2013, 08:32 PM | #254 | |
Join Date: Mar 2012
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
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This is very true. Cyberpunk is the biggest example of this i can think of. Compare the value of armor you can buy if you spend 10 points on Wealth to the value of armor you can buy if you spend 10 points on DR and you see a huge disparity. In addition, as someone mentioned earlier - yes you can have challenges based on drama and role playing and not brute force, however, smarter players will be able to build stronger characters and successfully navigate the drama and role playing. In Lois and Clark it worked because it was a narrative - the writers of the show deliberately made Lois the one to put things together and not Clark. If it were an RPG, there would be nothing stopping Clark from solving all the problems and Lois just doing...well, nothing really. |
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05-09-2013, 09:56 PM | #255 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
On the show, it wasn't just because "it was a narrative"; Clark generally had good reasons not to go barging around and powering his way through all of the challenges: often, the main challenges took the form of figuring out who he should go after in the first place (the "investigative reporters" part strongly implied puzzle solving; and while Clark's super-senses occasionally came in handy there in terms of finding clues, they didn't help him at all in terms of figuring out what those clues meant); and even when they didn't, Clark had character motivation reasons to restrain himself: he could have won Lois' adoration in episode 1 by taking off the glasses, but that would have completely defeated the point of trying to get Lois to fall for Clark, not Superman.
And on the wider stage, Superman was hampered in his efforts to stop Luthor by a desire to bring him to justice through the courts: he could have ended Luthor's threat at any time by busting into his tower and tossing him out the window; but that would have gone against everything he believed in. In short, it wasn't just writer fiat that allowed Lois to have such a prominent role on the show: there was also the nature of the challenges and the personalities involved — which, if roleplayed*, could lead to similar results in an RPG. Granted, this approach wouldn't work with the stereotypical group of "dungeon crawler"-mentality PCs. But then, that's where the aforementioned social contract comes in: if your players are dead set on solving all problems by brute force and aren't interested in restraining their characters for reasons of the characters' values, then obviously something like Lois & Clark or Smallville isn't going to work. OTOH, if the players are on board with the notion that violence isn't always the best answer (even if it seems so in the short term), then something along the lines of one of these shows is totally doable. And frankly, designing RPGs with dungeon-crawler mentalities in mind is a losing proposition. Certainly, there's a place for such a thing; otherwise, the Dungeon Fantasy series wouldn't be the success that it is. But it's not something I recommend baking in to the core assumptions of the game; especially when the game is supposed to be Universal. You need more emphasis on encouraging other styles of play. In GURPS, Impulse Buys and You Might Have a Point There provide a good start for this sort of thing. This, rather than character creation and advancement, is what I use points for in my games. * By "roleplay", I mean making decisions for your character based on what he values and how he thinks, not just what he can do. Last edited by dataweaver; 10-22-2013 at 04:48 PM. |
05-09-2013, 10:50 PM | #256 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
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05-09-2013, 11:35 PM | #257 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
Right; but my point is that even if Superman does ruthlessly exploit his Penetrating Vision, that's not necessarily a show-stopper: just shift the focus from finding clues to recognizing and interpreting them. Just like his tremendous physical capabilities mean that you should shift the focus from winning fights (no drama in that with his powers) to figuring out who to fight and when.
Indeed, the advent of the Internet takes a lot of the oomph out of Penetrating Vision: secrets that used to be kept on documents in hidden safes are now stored in digital form. A recent Pyramid article made some interesting points about how Kirk and Khan never met in person in Star Trek II: telecommunication makes it possible for one's enemies to taunt or threaten him without him being able to track them down or retaliate. There are all sorts of ways to keep Superman's powers from derailing the plot without resorting to convenient ignorance of them. |
05-10-2013, 09:01 AM | #258 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
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05-10-2013, 10:54 AM | #259 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
His super-hearing is a mixed blessing. He can hear everything happening in Metropolis: can you say "sensory overload"? He almost certainly has to filter out most of what he hears. And on the show, his super-hearing was used against him on several occasions to lure him into a trap or away from their real agenda: even with his superspeed, he can't be in two places at once.
And consider that latter point in more detail: Metropolis is a big city. In all likelihood, there are probably half a dozen muggings, break-ins, and domestic disputes happening at any given time. Even with his powers, Superman can't be everywhere at once; he needs to prioritize. Heck, domestic disputes are a perfect example of a problem that Superman can't solve through brute force: rescuing a wife from an abusive husband is trivial for him, but stands a good chance of getting him attacked by the wife. Not that she can hurt him; but still… And besides, Superman doesn't want people to depend on him too heavily: not only does it put an extra burden on him, but it also diminishes ordinary people by discouraging them from putting forth their best effort. Metropolis still has police and firefighters for a reason. That leaves him in a precarious position of deciding when to intervene and when to let things be. |
05-10-2013, 11:48 AM | #260 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
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Re: Advantages Are Not Utility Priced
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But we don't want that in gurps, or in gaming. Other games let the brick brick-out as hard as he can. Gurps happens to not work well with it. The big thing with making bricks work is; A) Let bricks use genre convention to their liking B) Don't play a brick. Play a related trope, such as The Hulk And this has nothing to do with point totals. As for point totals, if your game has infinites, then price things according to the pricing of infinite, otherwise price them according to something that works in setting. More so than inappropriate pricing of traits is the wonky effect money has on things. EDIT: What I meant about taking his abilities into account is; either you are building the world around the fact that the brick has (say) ST100 and DR100, or you are building the world around something else, such as reality. Either you are completely taking into account the brick has very specific numbers and are giving challenges for said numbers, or you are building a world, and the brick is hoping he is usable in said world. As for the 'solving problems out of awesome', it really sounds like you and your players are thinking in different directions.
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Last edited by kirbwarrior; 05-10-2013 at 11:52 AM. |
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