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Old 09-19-2018, 11:31 PM   #21
Daigoro
 
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Default Re: Fast forward cyberpunk action game

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Originally Posted by Tenex View Post
Without Fast Draw a gun armed person should not be able to engage someone closer than 21 feet before they can close and engage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
Any time someone mentions that, I feel obliged to post this:

21 Foot Rule - from Justified

BTW- GURPS-wise, moving 21 feet requires Move 7, which is slightly high for the average character. You'd probably have to call it the 15 foot rule to match the reality of the game system.
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Last edited by Daigoro; 09-19-2018 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:37 AM   #22
The Benj
 
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Default Re: Fast forward cyberpunk action game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
Any time someone mentions that, I feel obliged to post this:

21 Foot Rule - from Justified

BTW- GURPS-wise, moving 21 feet requires Move 7, which is slightly high for the average character. You'd probably have to call it the 15 foot rule to match the reality of the game system.
It requires Move 7 to do it in a single second, but the study showed volunteers averaged 1.5. Which could easily be a Move, then an All-Out Attack.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:51 AM   #23
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Default Re: Fast forward cyberpunk action game

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Originally Posted by The Benj View Post
It requires Move 7 to do it in a single second, but the study showed volunteers averaged 1.5. Which could easily be a Move, then an All-Out Attack.
But the gunman only needs to do a Ready in the same time, as GURPS doesn't deal with half seconds.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:59 AM   #24
The Benj
 
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Default Re: Fast forward cyberpunk action game

Sure, but the important part is:

Person 1, turn 1: Moves 5 yards toward Person 2
Person 2: Readies gun
Person 1, turn 2: All-Out Attacks, moving 2 more yards, then clobbers Person 2.
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Old 09-20-2018, 09:22 AM   #25
Tenex
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Fast forward cyberpunk action game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
Any time someone mentions that, I feel obliged to post this:

21 Foot Rule - from Justified

BTW- GURPS-wise, moving 21 feet requires Move 7, which is slightly high for the average character. You'd probably have to call it the 15 foot rule to match the reality of the game system.
That's a funny clip!

It's always difficult merging real world notions into game terms. I'm coming back to this game after a long break (over 25 years) and am reacquainting myself with the rules (especially 4thEd). Everyone should take my suggestions as real world concepts to generate ideas for restricting the dominance of guns rather than something that will work perfectly per GURPS canon.
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:51 AM   #26
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Fast forward cyberpunk action game

21 feet only applies to amateur gunmen (without Fast-Draw). Professional gunmen (with Fast-Draw) are faster.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:18 AM   #27
hal
 
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Default Re: Fast forward cyberpunk action game

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
21 feet only applies to amateur gunmen (without Fast-Draw). Professional gunmen (with Fast-Draw) are faster.
The thing about real life is that people don't always die immediately, nor do they always end up being rendered "incapacitated". The 21 foot rule is largely a reminder that even if the guy you shot ends up dead, he can STILL kill you. Having him die first is not necessarily a good criteria of determining whether you won the fight or not.

The other issues inherent with gun fighting is that an adrenaline dump isn't necessarily your friend. Yes, it concentrates your senses to the task at hand, but it can also render your eye/hand coordination somewhat suspect. Train like you fight, fight like you train is all about keeping you from going into an adrenal state - ie remain calm and professional.

In the end, GURPS sort of models this. Hitting zero or less results in consciousness problems, but for someone with a relatively high HT stat, those who would otherwise succumb to their injuries remain conscious and functional. Those who would eventually die of blood loss, can still perform functions such as knifing your character in the vitals or even getting lucky with a crit success while doing decent damage.

I've noted that no one has suggested the purchase of GURPS TACTICAL SHOOTING and using the rules for making gun combats a bit more gritty. Between the rules for realism, the assessing of penalties for lighting, etc - the original poster may want to purchase a copy for use with any campaign involving gun play.

One thing I noted was the capping of shock penalties to a max of -4. If a character is not stunned, the worst they suffer is a -4 penalty to their next attack. If they're sufficiently trained enough to hit despite that -4, they are still dangerous...
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Old 09-23-2018, 06:47 AM   #28
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: Fast forward cyberpunk action game

Well, pistols can be instantly lethal, even in real life, if they hit the right target. If a skilled gunman hits the skull, they are dealing an average of 28 damage, after skull DR, with a 9mm bullet. The pushes the average person past -(HT), giving them a 25% chance of dropping dead and a 25% chance of being incapacitated with a mortal wound. Since it is a major wound to the skull, the average person automatically is stunned and collapses. They also have a 75% of falling unconscious.

Even without a skull hit, a skilled gunman can Fast-Draw and shoot the average person during a charge, hitting them three times with a 9mm. Each average injury of 9 damage will have a 50% chance of stunning and dropping them, meaning that they have a 87.5% chance of dropping. Since they have taken 27 damage, they likewise risk death, mortal wounds, and unconsciousness as above.

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 09-23-2018 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:28 AM   #29
hal
 
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Default Re: Fast forward cyberpunk action game

Sig Sauer P226 or any of the other 9mm pistols, tend to deliver 2d6+2 damage. This gives a range of damage between 2 to 12 points AFTER skull DR is taken into account. 8 points to 48 points after quadrupling for damage to the skull case will result in some major results inclusive of stunning and the like.

The problem is, a brain case target area is -7 to hit. Shots that do not take the benefit of "aiming" properly do not gain the inherent accuracy of the pistol, so a straight skill roll (unless you're using GURPS TACTICAL SHOOTER rules) is not going to be all too well placed. A skill 14 individual with a -7 due to hit location, plus the penalty for speed/range (at minimum, -2 for a move 5 target) is going to be at -9 firing at a target only 2 yards away.

So, now comes the issue of the participants. If we're talking about average run of the mill "criminals" versus say, a professional (skill 12) shooter (let's call him a police officer for now) - the situation gets to be very dicey (pun intended).

Let's use average stats for our criminal and slightly higher stats for our Police officer. Speeds are 5 for the Criminal, 6 for the Police Officer (ie, DX and HT combined = 24). Police officer has his hand on his pistol butt warning the perp "come any closer and I'll shoot". The perp is 21 feet away exactly for this exercise.

So, the police officer has yet to draw his pistol, and we're going to assume DX 12, fast draw with 1 point, or skill 11. Pistol skill is at 12. Perp (played by the GM) decides to rush the cop. The player running the cop, tells the GM "I was using the wait with the premise I'll shoot if he comes closer" to which the GM agrees makes sense. So Perp starts to move his full 5 yards, and the Police officer has to decide WHEN to interrupt the perp. GM tells him "Make an IQ based pistol roll." The player manages to succeed with that roll, so the GM continues with... "perp is moving 5 this turn. If you fast draw and shoot while the perp is at 6 yards, full range/speed is 11. 6 for the actual range, 5 for the move, which puts you at -5 to hit. If you wait until the Perp is at 5 yards, your penalty becomes -4. If you wait until the perp reaches 2 yards, your penalty is -3. When do you fire?

Our Police officer opts for the -3 penalty to hit. He's NOT shooting for the Cranium, as that's an additional -7 to hit. So, he opts to play it safe and shoot for center of mass.

Statistically speaking? The odds of the police officer both getting his pistol ready and shooting with a successful hit to center of mass is:

.625 (skill roll of 11 for fast draw) x .375 (odds of rolling a 9 or less) or .23.4%.

Now you can maybe see why the 21 foot rule is there. In addition, some drugs permit an individual to not feel pain and become relatively immune to stunning. One individual on PCP took 11 hits before he went down (real life situation). That's 11 nine millimeter rounds that impacted on his body before he went down. 11 x 9 pts (average damage of 2d6+2) is 99 points of damage to a single individual!

In the end? How the "Scene" plays out is up to the GM, and how "gritty" they want to play it. In a Cyberpunk scenario, the guns might be more along the lines of 10mm rounds instead of 9mm rounds. Maybe we're talking about Caseless Ammunition instead. If a police officer with normal training levels has to tackle a perp - he gets ONE, maybe two instances to pump the perp full of lead (per GURPS rules) assuming that the fast draw is successful. If not, he gets only ONE chance. Even if the range is 1 yd, movement of 5 plus 1 makes it a 6 on the speed/range distance table, for a -3 to hit.

<shrug>

It all depends on the NPCs and their builds, versus perhaps a player character and his build. Otherwise, normal people facing off against normal people, the 21 foot rule isn't TOO far off the mark even for the game mechanics.
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