Sol-1 [Infinite Worlds]

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The principle details are the development of space under a Teddy Kennedy administration and continued under subsequent sympathetic administrations, resulting in a progressive and prosperous America with a much higher GDP than in OTL (20% of which directly relates to space). It is an optomistic ATL where America is the economic, moral, and political leader of the world and where nations that did not cooperate with America have been left in the dustbin.

I saw that. Getting around the Oil Shocks is always a major issue in creating a more positive late 20th century. Myself, I like getting Reagan into office during the oil shocks or their immediate aftermath. Anyone would look bad then so saying that X looked bad because they were blamed for what no one could control isn't crudely political.

It is an ATL where the Sol System is experiencing an American Century in the 21st century. Without many of the hinderances of OTL (excessive health care costs, global climate change, social media addiction, etc.), it is an ATL where the optimism that followed the end of the Cold War did not end but, instead, built upon itself because of the intelligent policy of American political leaders. It is an ATL that is better than OTL, not due to magic but, instead, due to America living up to its potential. It is an ATL where OTL would be used as a setting for dystopian fiction.

Again I see that and approve.

The danger to Centrum and Homeline is the potential for agent defection. Sol-1 lives up to all the old dreams of America in Homeline, while it offer a different, and arguably better, path than Centrum. It would be everything that Infinity could do to keep American patriots from secretly giving conveyor technology to the American government of Sol-1, which is one of the many reasons why it keeps the coordinates secret. Another reason is the absurd levels of precious metals from asteroid mining, as America has gone back to the gold standard because the value of gold is less than $50 an ounce.

Good thinking. The world were your people got it right is always going to be a seductive trap to avoid. Although if I was an Agent of Infinity (and the Left wing American patriot I am) I might bring in small bits of Tech that boosted the settings strengths. Some advanced bio-tech could bring wonderful benefits in this timeline.

[AlexanderHowl]

The introduction of new technology in American territory is problematic, especially if most research is being done in government funded labs off Earth (computer and biotech research is done in the sterile conditions of space). Your best bet would actually be introducing new technology through an American ally, like Japan or Iran, as their research would mostly avoid American scrutiny. Of course, they will also be doing that sort of research in space.

An interesting alternative scenario would occur if the PCs are federal agents of the USA in Sol-1. They find evidence that the Earth has been infiltrated by human clones that have likely been planted in the USA by alien overlords to subvert the computing and pharmaceutical industries of the USA. When captured and interrogated, the human clones give a patently delusional explanation that they are form parallel universes rather than being planted by alien overlords in prelude to an invasion of the Earth.

As the American government becomes more aware of the human clones and the advanced technology of their alien overlords, there would be a question of how to proceed. If the American government captured a transporter, would they simply send it back to the alien overlords with a warning for the alien overlords not to invade or would they seek to launch a counter intrusion? If they did either, how would Homeline or Centrum react?

[Phantasm]

Perhaps most jarring to me - and remember I currently live in the Deep South, one of the places this is most apparent, and I feel compelled to say not a viewpoint I agree with - is the utter lack of right-wing backlash against the left's "progressive social agenda". Suffice to say that after a few even moderate liberal presidents or Congresses, regardless of the economy, a "traditional" social values ultra-conservative/reactionary candidate that makes a lot of noise is almost guaranteed a win.

(Trying to give explanations or examples that won't get me an infraction due to RealPolitik and failing. This is a viewpoint I'm surrounded by and don't agree with, so I'm fighting to bite back the bile.)

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Perhaps most jarring to me - and remember I currently live in the Deep South, one of the places this is most apparent, and I feel compelled to say not a viewpoint I agree with - is the utter lack of right-wing backlash against the left's "progressive social agenda". Suffice to say that after a few even moderate liberal presidents or Congresses, regardless of the economy, a "traditional" social values ultra-conservative/reactionary candidate that makes a lot of noise is almost guaranteed a win.

(Trying to give explanations or examples that won't get me an infraction due to RealPolitik and failing. This is a viewpoint I'm surrounded by and don't agree with, so I'm fighting to bite back the bile.)

The right-wing backlash of the 1970's worked for four main reasons. First) the trashing of the Bretton Woods System by DeGaulle, which might still be in this setting. Second, the Oil Crisis which is countered by the solar satellites. Third, the desertion of the Unions by the Democratic Party and the subsequent desertion of the Democratic Party by many Union and former Union members, which doesn't happen if Kennedy gets in office. He fought against dumping the Unions. And Fourth, the seeming success of Ronald Reagan. Which is moot in this world because Reagan in this world is a mere also ran.

With three of the four main reasons the backlash was powerful removed, I assume the backlash would be more limited to the Deep South. And as the economy kept growing, and working class life got better, most younger people wouldn't line up with the backlash.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Th Second, the Oil Crisis which is countered by the solar satellites. .

The first OPEC embargo was in 1973. A satelite program that gets started in 1977 (but won't deliver for years) won't address that.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

With three of the four main reasons the backlash was powerful removed, I assume the backlash would be more limited to the Deep South. And as the economy kept growing, and working class life got better, most younger people wouldn't line up with the backlash.

I think you are ignoring the cultural impact of the political protests of the sixties, especially those at Chicago in 1968. Those caused a sense that public order was breaking down that inspired real alarm.

[SimonAce]

I'm one of those people who thinks Proxmire was for the most part correct on space spending but this is an interesting if somewhat less than conventionally adventurous setting.

It reads like .alt history not a game world which isn't bad per se.

It is not terribly realistic for a great many reasons , I'll pass on the economic and social ones ones but early solar wasn't very efficient and might not generate enough power to be useful or to solve problems.
The cost to retrofit would be staggering as well.

Space might simply not be able to solve any problems the US faces and there isn't any evidence that progressive policies whatever the heck that means in context would either

On top of that if the Internet is made comercial, it will be as Jeffrey Hammerbacher noted "The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads."

[SimonAce]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I think you are ignoring the cultural impact of the political protests of the sixties, especially those at Chicago in 1968. Those caused a sense that public order was breaking down that inspired real alarm.

There is also a broad setting assumption there is a magic formula that can create a stable society, just the right policy tweaks, just enoughs spending and so on.

At best its risible but for the purpose of this setting, I can roll with it and a mini campaign about bureaucrats at Infinity or Centrum discussing exposting Sol 1 policy to another world to achieve some goal or other could be fun for a few sessions with the right group

Solar power stats won't be able to power all that much really, factories and cars will still eat up most of the energy and run on hydrocarbon fuels for decades to come

This would mean implementation would have to be multi generational project which might not help.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

The right-wing backlash of the 1970's worked for four main reasons. First) the trashing of the Bretton Woods System by DeGaulle, which might still be in this setting. Second, the Oil Crisis which is countered by the solar satellites. Third, the desertion of the Unions by the Democratic Party and the subsequent desertion of the Democratic Party by many Union and former Union members, which doesn't happen if Kennedy gets in office. He fought against dumping the Unions. And Fourth, the seeming success of Ronald Reagan. Which is moot in this world because Reagan in this world is a mere also ran.

With three of the four main reasons the backlash was powerful removed, I assume the backlash would be more limited to the Deep South. And as the economy kept growing, and working class life got better, most younger people wouldn't line up with the backlash.

You're overlooking two to three entire generations, starting with many of those that fought in 'Nam under LBJ and Nixon, in those areas that were raised to believe the 1950s were a "golden age", rampant sexism and racism are good things, and that anyone not conforming to their social norms should be imprisoned (or worse).

The timing of the social backlash may be different, but realistically it WILL happen. Economics may play a part in delaying it, yes, but those who vehemently disagree with "LGBTs are guaranteed the same rights" and Roe vs Wade - and anything else that disagrees with their worldview, left or right of the aisle - will always need to be factored into these things.


Call me a pessimist (I consider myself a realist), but living and working among [snipped to avoid a RealPolitik rant] makes me wary of any "Republican/Democratic/Libertarian/Centrist utopia" setting, because of my experiences - and the feeling I get that they're pushing the author's viewpoint down the throats of the opposition and saying "see how much better things would be!" (I don't consider Authoritarian "utopias" to be a thing, though they make great dystopias for gaming.)

[SimonAce]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

You're overlooking two to three entire generations, starting with many of those that fought in 'Nam under LBJ and Nixon, in those areas that were raised to believe the 1950s were a "golden age", rampant sexism and racism are good things, and that anyone not conforming to their social norms should be imprisoned (or worse).

The timing of the social backlash may be different, but realistically it WILL happen. Economics may play a part in delaying it, yes, but those who vehemently disagree with "LGBTs are guaranteed the same rights" and Roe vs Wade - and anything else that disagrees with their worldview, left or right of the aisle - will always need to be factored into these things.


Call me a pessimist (I consider myself a realist), but living and working among [snipped to avoid a RealPolitik rant] makes me wary of any "Republican/Democratic/Libertarian/Centrist utopia" setting, because of my experiences - and the feeling I get that they're pushing the author's viewpoint down the throats of the opposition and saying "see how much better things would be!" (I don't consider Authoritarian "utopias" to be a thing, though they make great dystopias for gaming.)

Utopia of course literally means No Place or so I am told

That said if you judge a society by its ability for its citizens willingness to opt into its memes and to replenish its human capital the 1950's were a paradise

No argument it was harder on the roughly 15% of the population that was non White or non conforming (10% non White, 5% non conforming) but it had a very high fertility rate for a modern society

A TFR of nearly 4 which is roughly that of the US at the turn of the century and with much lower pre reproductive mortality is impressive

By comparison the TFR has been well below replacement since 1973 and is pushing 50 years below replacement , near 2/3rds of a century if you count the Great Depression till 1946 or so as part a cycle

Its so low right now that in a few hundred years, the majority group would be Amish if the stat line continues, which it won't of course.

I wonder if fertility would be higher in Sol 1?

If not either we'd have immigration to make up the difference as in OTL or a society with a much older median age.

Either could make for difficulties in the space race, a society with less social capital will have trouble with big projects on every level and one that is older will be more cautious and spend capital on things like health care

Somehow you have to make ends meets on a philosophy of equality requiring heavy wealth redistribution , enough that Europe has trouble making ends meet and one where staggeringly expensive space research and projects are also wanted while still retaining a big military and without ruinous inflation

I don't think a government power monopoly plus taxes would do it myself

This suggest that the social culture of Sol 1 is very very different than we recognize and its not despite familiar names, a close parallel at all.