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Old 12-07-2018, 04:01 PM   #11
Alden Loveshade
 
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Default Re: All-Out Attack Sequence

Just for comparison, I posted this on an SCA (LARP) discussion group, and got responses from people who do real sword and shield combat (the swords are actually made out of rattan, but the weight. length, etc. are comparable to real swords which I used to help sell).

I got very different answers. Many said none of the above, or all of the above. One, who is a very talented fighter (he became an SCA king through combat), said A1, A2, A3, A4, etc. He hits an opponent continuously, trying not to give them a chance to attack.

Another very talented fighter (who's fought with the first), said let A keep swinging until he gets wore out, then I as B will attack and hit him in the head.

Of those who did choose one of the options, they generally seemed to lean towards 1 or 3.

Finally, I asked people who had both done LARP combat and played GURPS. Their results are below.
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: All-Out Attack Sequence

I talked to people who have both done SCA/LARP combat (or in some cases marshaled it) and played GURPS.

Like those who had only done LARP, they said real combat is much more varied than roleplaying. They also agreed that in real life you decide what you're going to do the instant before you do it because there's no way to know what your opponent is going to do in advance.

One of them (who has fought in every SCA combat form including sword and shield, sword, two swords, shehnai, archery, etc.) was actually nice enough to call me on the phone and went through a whole range of possibilities.

I did get something of a general consensus if restricted to my three choices. Most of those who did both SCA and GURPS said 1. My caller, however, said ordinarily it would be 1, but if Fighter B were much faster, then most likely 3.

The general consensus among them was that the best balance between game system and reality was option 1.
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Old 12-07-2018, 09:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: All-Out Attack Sequence

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I cannot imagine why.

Nobody is going to 'wait to do the second attack until they hit you back'. That's not even what Wait does, and isn't remotely what it's for. Wait is a powerful way to get the drop on opponents after they've committed to actions and exposed themselves, and to make your actions and position responsive to things that happened after your turn. Letting you treat Wait as an attack option rather than a maneuver is...big.
One example might be if facing 2 opponents running up to you, if you have to make all attacks as soon as the Wait is triggered then you could only attack the first to run up, and the second to close the distance would get first shot against you.
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Old 12-07-2018, 09:57 PM   #14
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One example might be if facing 2 opponents running up to you, if you have to make all attacks as soon as the Wait is triggered then you could only attack the first to run up, and the second to close the distance would get first shot against you.
I don't mean that I cannot imagine why someone would want that ability.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: All-Out Attack Sequence

To give an example, let's say there are a pair of ogres wielding axes hiding around a corner. You can't round the corner yourself (they're RIGHT around it) or they will chop you. So you wait for them to come around... you have Extra Attack and a pair of revolvers. You should insults at them so eventually they realize you're not coming and charge around...

If they come around in unison (maybe using Teamwork) then you could shoot them both as you could interupt their turns simultaneously, and shoot them both before they can advance up to hall toward you... but if they come around the corner separately, you can...

1) interrupt the turn of the first guy, shoot him and fully use up your turn, but then 2nd guy runs around corner and runs up to you and axes you

2) interrupt the turn of the second guy, but then the first guy already ran up and axes you

If it's possible to Wait separately for both of your attacks that turn, you could shoot both by interrupting their turns separately with your base attack and Extra Attack.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:42 PM   #16
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: All-Out Attack Sequence

Was the last post really unclear? I understand how being able to use Wait as an attack option would be more powerful than using it as a Maneuver. I do not understand why you would houserule it that way.


(Also, don't forget that canonical wait requires you to say what the action will be when you declare the Wait, though not in perfect detail. Your ability to shoot two simultaneous charging ogres is going to depend on what Wait you actually declared...)
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:10 AM   #17
Plane
 
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Default Re: All-Out Attack Sequence

I was thinking "Wait .. All-Out Attack double as soon as a target comes around the corner, 1st attack on first target, sub-Wait 2nd attack on 2nd target to come around corner."

If a 2nd target never comes then the 2nd would be wasted.
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Old 12-10-2018, 12:14 AM   #18
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Default Re: All-Out Attack Sequence

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I was thinking "Wait .. All-Out Attack double as soon as a target comes around the corner, 1st attack on first target, sub-Wait 2nd attack on 2nd target to come around corner."

If a 2nd target never comes then the 2nd would be wasted.
If they came round the corner at the same time* I'd likely allow it without worrying about splitting the wait.

If they didn't I wouldn't allow it as it would be two triggers on one wait.


*I know mechanically we'd resolve one actors movement at a time but in reality people can move in concert. It would depend on the set up though.
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Old 12-10-2018, 12:39 AM   #19
Plane
 
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Default Re: All-Out Attack Sequence

Moving in concert I think requires the Teamwork perk, or using the Coordinate Attack technique from GURPS Powers. It seems weird that if 2 guys were exposed, you could shoot both, but not if they expose themselves in sequence.
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Old 12-10-2018, 04:21 AM   #20
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Default Re: All-Out Attack Sequence

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Moving in concert I think requires the Teamwork perk, or using the Coordinate Attack technique from GURPS Powers.
True, or you could have one of them taking a wait "I move when my mate moves".

But in reality 2 guards moving down a corridor on patrol (or running in response to an alarm or what ever) can reasonably just keep pace with each other.

Even if the game's mechanics has their ongoing movements gaming out as separate actions that involve them each separately moving some hexes one at a time. That is purely a game resolution requirement (we literally can't resolve everything at once). The mechanism represents everyone acting concurrently not consecutively. even if the system can also accommodate some being quicker to respond than others.

So I'm always happy to judge this kind of thing with what the mechanics is trying to describe in mind, rather than how it is forced to play it out as a part of a gamable abstraction



Quote:
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It seems weird that if 2 guys were exposed, you could shoot both, but not if they expose themselves in sequence.
TBH thinking about it I don't actually have major issue with holding back a 2nd attack from an AoA (dbl) here as part of a stepped wait, it's one more thing that can go wrong with the wait and you risk getting all the negatives of the AoA and not it's benefit if the 2nd target doesn't arrive that turn!

But are we talking about melee or shooting?
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-10-2018 at 04:28 AM.
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