Cherubim and Pregnant Moms

[Rocket Man]

A scenario came up in a game tonight that got me thinking. Our NPC Cherub had to rescue one of her attuned who was four months pregnant and in danger of giving birth *way* too soon. The Guardian was in time, but it raised the question: What happens when a Cherub attunes to a pregnant woman?

* Does the Cherub attune to both the mother and unborn child, or just to the mom, with the unborn counting as part of her overall condition?

*If the Cherub does attune to both, is it just for the duration of the pregnancy, or does the attunement to the baby continue after it's born?

*If the woman loses the child, does that count as dissonant for a Cherub, since it was "destroyed"? If both mother and child die, is that two notes of dissonance?

*Can a Cherub attune to an unborn without attuning to the mother -- a sort of guardian angel from birth?

I'm sure there's more implications I haven't thought of, but this will do for a start. ;)

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

What happens when a Cherub attunes to a pregnant woman?

* Does the Cherub attune to both the mother and unborn child, or just to the mom, with the unborn counting as part of her overall condition?

*If the Cherub does attune to both, is it just for the duration of the pregnancy, or does the attunement to the baby continue after it's born?

*If the woman loses the child, does that count as dissonant for a Cherub, since it was "destroyed"? If both mother and child die, is that two notes of dissonance?

*Can a Cherub attune to an unborn without attuning to the mother -- a sort of guardian angel from birth?

I'm sure there's more implications I haven't thought of, but this will do for a start. ;)

A most interesting question. On the one hand, there's the question of when life begins, theologically speaking, and that has varied throughout history. OTOH I've used and abused an in utero angelic blessing as a plot device. So I'm torn in some ways.

Mainly though I'd treat them as distinct individuals. The child's death wouldn't affect the cherub, except that it profoundly affects the mother. They're connected by a blood supply and by massive and primal emotions. If the child gets hurt, the mother knows and suffers emotional pain at the very least. If the injury is just so wrong, the child's death could kill the mother too.

So I'd say the cherub is only attuned to the mother, but the mother is de facto attuned to the child. It won't hit the angel as hard, but it will hit him. When the child is born i.e. there is no longer a direct physical dependence, the angel will no longer be aware of the child's condition except where he breaks his mother's heart, as children do.

A cherub attuning to an unborn child is a little trickier. At what point does the soul take residence? Or does it develop? Conception, or quickening? Or birth (which I'd say sooner than birth, given my own plot uses)? The cherub is not just attuning to a soul, otherwise the link wouldn't be broken with death. He's latching on to a life, so then you get into the uber-sticky question of when life begins.

Do forgive the pun on "sticky".

[Andygal]

Re: attuning to an unborn child, the rules state that the Cherub has to be able to touch whatever they are attuning too, so they couldn't attune to a child in the womb.

Except for the Cherubim of the Sword, who can attune to anything they can see (including visual representations) so they might be able to attune to the fetus using an ultrasound image.

Probably easier to just attune to the mother, anything that puts the unborn child in danger is likely to endanger the mother as well so it has more or less the same effect for the duration of the pregnancy, and it's easier to just stop by somebody's workplace or hang around someplace you know they are going to walk by and get a look at them that way then it is to get them to show you an ultrasound image of their unborn baby.

[Flyndaran]

Metabolically, a fetus acts as an organ of the mother. Also, life doesn't begin as eggs and sperm started out alive. The issue is when humanity begins.

[JCD]

(Walks carefully away from the discussion of when life and humanity begin)


Ooookaaayyy!

The answer is obvious and unrelated to the medical implications: The Cherub is attuned to as many of them as makes a good story or causes the most conflict. You can wave the GM wand to make whatever justifications you feel necessary. When incredulous questions come from the players, the best answer is to roll some dice, shuffle some papers, chuckle and say "You'd think that, wouldn't you."

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Metabolically, a fetus acts as an organ of the mother. Also, life doesn't begin as eggs and sperm started out alive. The issue is when humanity begins.

Actually, Flyn, in this case I'm not sure it matters in the least when life/consciousness begins. A Cherub is just as capable of attuning to an inanimate object as it is to a living being. My concern was whether they're two objects/beings/whatevers tied so tightly that attuning to one is attuning to both, or whether it would have the same game consequences as the mother losing a lung (to use your organ example); distressing but not dissonant.

Originally Posted by Andygal

Re: attuning to an unborn child, the rules state that the Cherub has to be able to touch whatever they are attuning too, so they couldn't attune to a child in the womb.

Except for the Cherubim of the Sword, who can attune to anything they can see (including visual representations) so they might be able to attune to the fetus using an ultrasound image.

Excellent point, Andy. I'd forgotten the touch requirement. (Or at least was thinking more about whether touching one was touching both.)

Originally Posted by JCD

The answer is obvious and unrelated to the medical implications: The Cherub is attuned to as many of them as makes a good story or causes the most conflict.

<chuckle> And in the end that may be the best answer of all.

(EDIT: And Heretic, my thanks for your thoughtful and detailed answer as well -- that gave me a lot of food for thought.)

[William]

Originally Posted by Andygal

Re: attuning to an unborn child, the rules state that the Cherub has to be able to touch whatever they are attuning too, so they couldn't attune to a child in the womb.

Except for the Cherubim of the Sword, who can attune to anything they can see (including visual representations) so they might be able to attune to the fetus using an ultrasound image.

Using the Song of Possession on the mother would probably also work -- she's certainly touching the child.

Rocket Man, your questions all boil down to the principle of whether to treat mother and child as separate beings. If they are, then a Cherub touching a pregnant woman attunes only to her, and he must make the efforts described above in order to attune to the child, as he would have to put forth extra efforts to attune to any well-protected being. If they aren't, then the Cherub attunes to one being, either the mother (in which case all your questions would be answered by considering the mother's well-being solely) or an amalgam of mother and child (an unusual entity to be sure, and one on which you could probably give your own answers, with birth being similar to the natural death of a normal human).

Given that the mother and child in In Nomine can be two entirely different species, each with different soul-natures and afterlife arrangements -- the mother a human, for example, and the child a Child of the Grigori -- I would say that In Nomine would certainly treat the mother and child as two separate entities. So the later questions have no import, and a Cherub attuned to a pregnant woman will be concerned with the progress of the pregnancy insofar as it impacts her health and future well-being.

[Rocket Man]

Fair enough, William. Thanks!

[Acolyte]

William ftw.

Well-thought out and simple (simple in an RPG = always a plus). I like it.