Newb Q re: Cherubim

[schmeelke]

I have this idea for a character, but I don't know how well it fits the IN universe.

Character is a Cherub (guardian angel -- let's call him Curtis), but he's almost as truthful as a Seraph. His Superior is Yves (Destiny). His goal (not sure if it can be summed up in a Word) is to make sure that "star-crossed lovers" (think Romeo & Juliet)* meet, fall in love, and do more than date (could be as little as an honest declaration of love to full-blown marriage). Meanwhile, the opposition is using societal norms (among other things) as a means to prevent said marriage (or whatever).

* I'm thinking of couples that "shouldn't" get together: upper/lower-class society in Victorian England, interracial couples in the US pre-1967, gay/lesbian couples in today's society.

Now, here's the part I don't think fits in the IN universe:
"Juliet" is apparently killed (hand-held video shows a gunshot from off-camera), but Curtis knows for certain that she's not dead, but not where she is. (How would he know for certain, and how could his resonance be blocked like that?) The problem is that no other angels (including the higher-ups) believe him, and they want him to move on. He needs "Romeo" to act as a sort of compass to locate Juliet's soul and send it from wherever it is to Heaven (or Hell, but that would be a heck of a downer).

Why wouldn't his superiors believe him?

How much can Romeo be told/involved without breaking the "masquerade"? ("I'm sort of a cop. My superiors want me to drop the case, but I'm working it on my off hours.") I'm thinking Romeo probably wouldn't believe Curtis without some sort of evidence, probably from the video.

I'm thinking a trip to Hell is in order. Or more likely, to some sort of a pocket dimension.

[Jason]

The nice thing about Songs and artifacts in this game is that you can always make up an effect, point to Liber Canticorum, and say, "Well, it said there are plenty of 'variants' of any given song, soooo..."

So, the Cherub's charge is in a room equipped with "jamming stones" -- persistently active artifacts that specifically block Cherub/Djinn attunements in small area.

The bigger issues with this scenario, at least from a rules perspective, are:

1. Humans can't go into Heaven/Hell without dying.

2. If the Cherub's charge were dead, the Cherub would have a ton of dissonance, and Yves would know that. A Cherub without dissonance means a living charge -- unless those jamming stones don't just block an attunement, but forcibly cancel it. If the attunement is still active but blocked, you may need to come up with some explanation for how Yves could be fooled into thinking the charge is dead (e.g., the Cherub has some unrelated dissonance from unwittingly leading someone to Fate, and it's not obvious to Yves where it came from).

[William]

There is a relic called Djinn Fuzz that can block a Cherub's attunement. If Curtis isn't Dissonant, he knows Juliet isn't dead; if his attunement is active but nonfunctional, he knows something like either Djinn Fuzz or a Song of Celestial Shields is blocking him, and the latter takes a lot more Essence. A Djinn of Fate would have severed the attunement completely, so it's not that.

Normally, Djinn Fuzz requires that the user be bonded; Juliet might have been tricked into bonding to the stuff (maybe someone told her, "this is a lock of Romeo's hair") or, more perversely, someone might have bound her into the Fuzz (this takes a Plot Device, such as the lost Song of Soul Binding, or a Song or relic ability you make up) -- in which case, she's not exactly alive either, and it's iffy whether a functional body can be restored. Perhaps her original body lies badly wounded and soulless, and there is a race against the clock to find her and restore her to life.

It's not clear why his superior wouldn't believe him based on his own evidence, unless you're referring to an immediate superior, a ranking angel rather than Yves, in which case it's possible that the ranking angel has been subjected to demonic influence. The video itself may have had a Song or attunement embedded in it by Nybbas' Subliminal Attunement, causing at least a few viewers to think Juliet is dead. This would work if a demon of the Media had at least a few minutes to work with the device. Any other Balseraph could, of course, have gotten to his boss if possible.

Your story for Romeo is fine, at least until the supernatural effects start flying. Why he would have any better idea where Juliet is than a Cherub is highly unclear, unless the two of them were bonded Symphonically. Strong human emotion can sometimes create relics -- perhaps if Juliet were disembodied, she carries with her the celestial form of a relic ring, twinned to the one Romeo wears, that give the two of them a vague sense of each other's location and state of well-being.

Angels are not supposed to go to Hell without explicit permission from the Seraphim Council, which is rarely given. If you want pocket dimensions, try the Marches, which have the added bonus of plausibly having all sorts of local physics to handwave any plot devices you need.

[schmeelke]

Originally Posted by Jason

1. Humans can't go into Heaven/Hell without dying.

Okay, so a pocket dimension then. It should be someplace difficult to locate.

Originally Posted by Jason

2. If the Cherub's charge were dead, the Cherub would have a ton of dissonance, and Yves would know that.

Juliet wasn't Curtis's "charge" at the time. (Unless I'm getting the definition wrong.) I get the impression that Curtis is in charge of taking care of hundreds of "marked" couples, but only attunes himself if a marked person is in danger of being interfered with. I don't think a Cherub is automatically attuned to everything he's supposed to be protecting.

Originally Posted by Jason

A Cherub without dissonance means a living charge -- unless those jamming stones don't just block an attunement, but forcibly cancel it. If the attunement is still active but blocked, you may need to come up with some explanation for how Yves could be fooled into thinking the charge is dead (e.g., the Cherub has some unrelated dissonance from unwittingly leading someone to Fate, and it's not obvious to Yves where it came from).

To Romeo (and everyone else on Earth), Juliet is dead. There's video footage of her death, and a body, which (if checked) matches her DNA sample, etc. Curtis would have to come up with some darn good evidence to convince him that she's alive (slightly alive, or whatever).
To Curtis, Juliet never died, but for some reason he can't locate her. After noticing and investigating her disappearance, he finds out she's dead ("How could she be dead if I didn't notice?"), that the body in the grave is hers (as far as he can tell -- can celestials recognize a person by their DNA?)
To Yves (and anyone of higher rank than Curtis), Curtis can't get anywhere with them. They don't believe him, they don't pass on the info. to their higher-ups, he can't get in touch with them, etc. Curtis might think it's a cover-up, but would angels do that?

[schmeelke]

Originally Posted by William

There is a relic called Djinn Fuzz that can block a Cherub's attunement. If Curtis isn't Dissonant, he knows Juliet isn't dead; if his attunement is active but nonfunctional, he knows something like either Djinn Fuzz or a Song of Celestial Shields is blocking him, and the latter takes a lot more Essence. A Djinn of Fate would have severed the attunement completely, so it's not that.

Curtis wasn't attuned to Juliet at the time.

Originally Posted by William

in which case, she's not exactly alive either, and it's iffy whether a functional body can be restored. Perhaps her original body lies badly wounded and soulless, and there is a race against the clock to find her and restore her to life.

Exactly what I was thinking of. If her original body is too damaged, could a clone be devised to insert her soul into?

Originally Posted by William

It's not clear why his superior wouldn't believe him based on his own evidence, unless you're referring to an immediate superior, a ranking angel rather than Yves, in which case it's possible that the ranking angel has been subjected to demonic influence. The video itself may have had a Song or attunement embedded in it by Nybbas' Subliminal Attunement, causing at least a few viewers to think Juliet is dead. This would work if a demon of the Media had at least a few minutes to work with the device. Any other Balseraph could, of course, have gotten to his boss if possible.

The only evidence Curtis has is his testimony that he didn't feel her die, and (when he discovers it) the video of her death. A Seraph could tell that he's not lying or hiding the truth, but other than that... nothing.

Originally Posted by William

Your story for Romeo is fine, at least until the supernatural effects start flying. Why he would have any better idea where Juliet is than a Cherub is highly unclear, unless the two of them were bonded Symphonically. Strong human emotion can sometimes create relics -- perhaps if Juliet were disembodied, she carries with her the celestial form of a relic ring, twinned to the one Romeo wears, that give the two of them a vague sense of each other's location and state of well-being.

I'm thinking soulmates (vaguely in the Platonic sense), but I don't think that's a valid IN concept.

[Archangel Beth]

If you want to get a bit baroque, you could rule that your Juliet and Romeo are the incarnations of potent sorcerers (non-damned variety) who wove a mighty ritual that would bind them together forever, so they could find each other even beyond death.

Of course, reincarnation doesn't necessarily come with full memory details. Oops.

[schmeelke]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

If you want to get a bit baroque, you could rule that your Juliet and Romeo are the incarnations of potent sorcerers (non-damned variety) who wove a mighty ritual that would bind them together forever, so they could find each other even beyond death.

At any given point in time, there are many pairs of "Romeos" and "Juliets", each of which are Destined to be together. I just picked out one pair.

[William]

Exactly what I was thinking of. If her original body is too damaged, could a clone be devised to insert her soul into?

JeanTech can do a lot of things. If you have a sample of the original body, it might be possible. If she's human, still on Earth, disembodied, and not dead, she's in an unusual state that doesn't give anyone a lot to go on. It might also be possible to give her a relic body, like Hypatia's, although this is extremely expensive in character points and crafting time.

The only evidence Curtis has is his testimony that he didn't feel her die, and (when he discovers it) the video of her death. A Seraph could tell that he's not lying or hiding the truth, but other than that... nothing.

I'm thinking soulmates (vaguely in the Platonic sense), but I don't think that's a valid IN concept.

If he wasn't attuned to her at the time, there's no reason he should have felt her die, unless he has a special Attunement to this effect. If he is intended to be a normal starting character, or close to it, he's unlikely to be Word-bound, especially to a Word which will be drawing nasty attention from the former Archangel of Love, but he might work for such an angel and have a Servitor Attunement that lets him sense whether someone's starcrossed love is still "out there," and give vague guidance on how to bring the two together. This gives you a good reason to get Romeo involved, because the Attunement is finding her via getting him to her, without having to involve his resonance directly.

Instead of disbelieving him completely, his bosses might simply worry that he's misreading his Attunement (Infernal Interventions happen, as do overzealous Cherubim) and be pressuring him to get Romeo to mourn and move on, and then move on himself to one of the many other starcrossed loves that need Heavenly assistance, rather than chasing a (possibly literal) ghost. It helps if Juliet had any Sorcery or demonic trouble running around in the background, since that gives a higher-up another reason to take a big-picture approach to cutting your losses.

[JCD]

Huh.

Making this overly complicated.

They have a vessel of the dead woman created by...someone. Why can't Superiors make a virtually identical vessel for use. So someone high up the food chain has an interest in this girl.

Now, this Cherubim wasn't attuned to her. He WAS a 'friend' and so if he abandons her, he gets Dissonance. So he has a perfectly valid reason to find out what happened.

As far as the superiors, look at what they have: a DNA compatible dead body (Perhaps creamated to avoid later checking for vesseldom), a video of her being shot vs. a Cherbub who can only say in Enochian (the Angelic Tongue) "I have a strong feeling that Juliet is still alive though I have no concrete evidence to prove it."

So Yves has about 6 billion souls that need saving, 6 million demons to fight, and he has a Servitor who cares about J. Meanwhile Julio and Romano both need someone to mend their fences. So...does he let him act on his feeling? "Go get something solid and do it fast. Lots of souls need help who aren't dead." is the best he can do.

As far as using Romeo, the Song of Contagion. Maybe their...various activities left enough of a mark (Hymen NOT going to say any more) that there is a connection...at least until Romeo dips his wick somewhere else, just to add a bit of timing tension.

I find his feeling a bit feeble as a motivation. I'd throw something else in there: the Juliet vessel was acting very uncharacteristically, maybe he glimpsed her somewhere else but was unable to get to her, etc.

So, who did it, why and how?

I would refer you to Celestial Shields as well. Maybe there is an artifact which puts it out in a small area, or a Symphonic dead zone.

But the real problem is getting R to help him when all he wants to do is move on with his unhappy tattered life.

And if you REALLLY want to throw in a twist, have her Destiny be to NOT be with Romeo...so he's operating against the will of another Scion of Destiny. Or better, have her have a couple of Destinies and one is Romeo and the other is stopping the Great South American Massacre. Just saying...

Good luck.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by schmeelke

To Romeo (and everyone else on Earth), Juliet is dead. There's video footage of her death, and a body, which (if checked) matches her DNA sample, etc. Curtis would have to come up with some darn good evidence to convince him that she's alive (slightly alive, or whatever).
To Curtis, Juliet never died, but for some reason he can't locate her. After noticing and investigating her disappearance, he finds out she's dead ("How could she be dead if I didn't notice?"), that the body in the grave is hers (as far as he can tell -- can celestials recognize a person by their DNA?)
To Yves (and anyone of higher rank than Curtis), Curtis can't get anywhere with them. They don't believe him, they don't pass on the info. to their higher-ups, he can't get in touch with them, etc. Curtis might think it's a cover-up, but would angels do that?

Excuse my free-associating but...the body in the grave is hers, but she's not dead. Just buried alive! If this happens in the 19th century it becomes quite plausible (well, except for the video footage eh?). Present day Haiti also plausible but with entirely different consequences, eh? If your imagination is as doomy as mine, I'm sure you can figure out a way that Juliette is buried alive. A crypt instead of a coffin? Cryo?