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Old 11-30-2022, 12:51 PM   #31
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: Thieves

I mean, it's not a bad idea, but I needed the wordcount for other stuff and it grew by like two pages anyways.
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Old 11-30-2022, 12:59 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
Oh, they were the ones doing the ambushing. I probably should have run it the other way around too, but there just wasn't enough time.

I am thinking about making an expanded system for sneaking though. Something akin to the chase rules from Action 2. That could be a lot of fun.
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I mean, it's not a bad idea, but I needed the wordcount for other stuff and it grew by like two pages anyways.
I'll have to get Action 2 and read up on the chase rules to see how I feel about them.

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Old 11-30-2022, 04:53 PM   #33
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I'll have to get Action 2 and read up on the chase rules to see how I feel about them.
Those rules are great by themselves, but what I have in mind would be more self-contained and like them vs. actually them.
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Old 11-30-2022, 05:08 PM   #34
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I took up the topic in an article of my own, suggesting ways to power up DF and DFRPG thieves primarily by supercharging their skills through additional talents. (DF has a fair selection of talents of interest to thieves, but DFRPG offers few.)
I had time today to read your article. It was useful, informative, and fun to read. Thank you! I'm going to suggest that my player consider one or more of those talents.
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Old 11-30-2022, 08:51 PM   #35
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I had time today to read your article. It was useful, informative, and fun to read. Thank you! I'm going to suggest that my player consider one or more of those talents.
Thank you for the kind words. It's interesting that players in both DF/DFRPG and D&D raise complaints about the thief being overshadowed. It's fun profession to play (in my experience), so I welcome any ideas for removing those complaints.

I added a paragraph to the article now, noting this: On the template, the DF/DFRPG thief spends close to nothing on weapon skills (just a fraction of what even the wizard spends). Which is likely part of what sets some players complaining, but on the flip side, it means that just a few more points in weapon skills makes a real difference. With DX 15, a handful of diverted points easily gets you, say, Shortsword and/or Bow at 17 or higher, a decent level for skirmishing.

It's a pretty obvious improvement for any thief player wanting to help out more in combat.
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Old 11-30-2022, 10:08 PM   #36
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Thank you for the kind words. It's interesting that players in both DF/DFRPG and D&D raise complaints about the thief being overshadowed. It's fun profession to play (in my experience), so I welcome any ideas for removing those complaints.

I added a paragraph to the article now, noting this: On the template, the DF/DFRPG thief spends close to nothing on weapon skills (just a fraction of what even the wizard spends). Which is likely part of what sets some players complaining, but on the flip side, it means that just a few more points in weapon skills makes a real difference. With DX 15, a handful of diverted points easily gets you, say, Shortsword and/or Bow at 17 or higher, a decent level for skirmishing.

It's a pretty obvious improvement for any thief player wanting to help out more in combat.
I enjoyed the article so much that I started a giant reply on my phone about game structures, but it was too long and I got overwhelmed. :) The short version is that I think the thief lacks a niche as a dedicated profession, but I think all of the talents you suggest are improvements and I would allow any of them in my game, but thieves would still be weak IMO unless other changes are made, at minimum to free up points so you can actually SPEND them on those talents.

The fact that thieves are forced to spend 160 points (!) on DX and IQ plus 15 more on Perfect Balance might be why they're so thin on weapon skills. Even wizards spend only 140, and other professions spend 60-120. Diverting those DX/IQ points into talents from your article's list of talents would... still leave thieves without a real niche, but they'd be more fun to play. (And you could spend more points on advantages like Weapon Master (Knife) and Expert Backstabber, which are kind of fun if not overpowered by the standards of a combat specialist.)

P.S. #DailyHouserule on Twitter is terrific!

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Old 11-30-2022, 11:18 PM   #37
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P.S. #DailyHouserule on Twitter is terrific!
Yep. !
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Old 12-01-2022, 12:54 AM   #38
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Thank you for the kind words. It's interesting that players in both DF/DFRPG and D&D raise complaints about the thief being overshadowed. It's fun profession to play (in my experience), so I welcome any ideas for removing those complaints.
Thieves have two fundamental issues: they try to be good at both DX and IQ skills, and they try to be good at IQ skills without being a spellcaster. The way GURPS works, the first is almost always doomed to failure in high point games, and the second is just not particularly efficient. The easiest fix is probably something like:
  • Make Perfect Balance optional (and expect to see it vanish from every character sheet; it's a terrible advantage)
  • Make Flexibility optional (not actually a bad advantage, but not so good or thematic that it should be on every sheet)
  • Reduce base IQ by a point.
  • Increase base DX by a point, without adjusting basic Speed.
  • Add a level of some really bogus Thief talent. I like Filch, Pickpocket, Search, Stealth, Streetwise, Traps [5]. Allow more levels with points.
  • With the above savings, increase flex points from 30 to 50.
  • Add Charisma to available options.
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Old 12-01-2022, 09:45 AM   #39
Kromm
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It's too late to change the game (literally), but had I been thinking harder, I'd probably just have introduced some special advantage that lets thieves use DX for a long list of skills that could be justified by using deft or sensitive fingers to cheat, hide, manipulate, or steal (say, Cartography, Counterfeiting, Forgery, Gambling, Gesture, Holdout, Scrounging, Search, Smuggling, and Traps) or using nimble feet to avoid danger or being seen (e.g., Shadowing and Urban Survival). I'd throw in Disguise to apply makeup deftly and carry one's body differently. It'd basically be a pile of Attribute Substitution perks, but far more than normally allowed, so call it 15 points – say Thieves' Cunning [15]. Then reduce IQ to 10 to save 60 points, keep Per at 14 at the cost of another 15 points, and put the 30 points saved into advantage options.

I've never agreed with the idea of thieves as light fighters. It makes me a crusty old fool, but for me, the warrior-wizard-rogue division is one of the most fundamental in hack 'n' slash. So, I wouldn't put those 30 points into combat abilities . . . but yes, someone could spend them that way.

All of which said, a bigger problem than the basic build is casters upstaging thieves with all their detect this, avoid that, neutralize the other thing spells. They can seek out and negate traps and poisons, open locks, find treasures, etc. My feeling is that in a world where such casters are all over the place, nearly any hiding place, lock, trap, or trick of importance would involve copious amounts of anti-magic, be it mini no-mana zones or meteoric iron . . . sort of how modern-day locks of any quality are tempered steel and not iron, good security cameras are in little armored-plastic cases and bubbles rather than being fragile webcams, and so on. However, GMs seem to prefer the logic "Why would the spells exist if they're useless?" to "Why would security measures rendered useless by spells exist?"
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Old 12-01-2022, 10:01 AM   #40
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I like the logic of "the spells exist because most security measures aren't good". But delvers generally aren't interested in busting into the Carter's Guildhall.
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