Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-08-2022, 02:49 AM   #51
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
Gurps "prices" reflect just increased productivity due to TL advancement; if you are in North Korea you're still dirty poor despite being TL 8. Also, the Wealth trait is individual, not a measure of society. So, even if the quality of life for the AVERAGE person was better in 1950 than today (TL 7 to TL 8), a Wealth person is wealthier today than in those times, by game design. It's just that society overall had MORE people with a better rating of wealth than today - that's it.
Well the Wealth trait hangs off of the average starting income of the TL — with a monthly range between the previous and next TL (Basic Set 517)

In certain situations Wealth is irrelevant.

Many late TL5+ solders have their equipment provided by their government so its cost is irrelevant. The same would be true of a Star Fleet crew though it would be the ship providing the stuff. James Bond inspired spies are much the same way.
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2022, 05:51 AM   #52
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanjo7Sagi View Post

What I was trying to say was that I kind of like the idea behind the Abstract Wealth rules, just not the execution. At least related to extra rolls.
If you ever get a chance, dig into BEAT TO QUARTERS role playing game. Their Abstract wealth system is such that you have a general wealth level as an attribute. If you want to buy things within your wealth level, that's fine. Go higher than your wealth level, and you roll a saving roll against the wealth level, and it can be "Damaged" making purchases later on more difficult. The nice thing is, as a product, it is a pay what you want item, which means you can get it for free. If it is worth a dollar to you to see new ideas - then it is worth $1.

Might be worth your while to dig into it. I don't use it myself, but that's because I have my own "equipment lists" that are period specific. I could run an 1812 campaign set at Sea if I wanted to - using GURPS rules (and GURPS VEHICLES 2nd edition). I could run period specific games set in the American Old West if I wanted to (Have an interest strong enough to have picked up TIME/LIFE librarary books, an Encyclopeida of the Old West that's 3" thick, along with a lot of other references including Old Montgomery Ward and Sears catelogs from the time period). I have an OLD 1900 Catelog that measures some 18 to 20" tall by about 12" wide that I inherited from my Grandfather through my parents. It is really FRAGILE now that I almost HATE to open it. Some of the products contained within it are definitely NOT politically correct today - but one such product is a device/contraption for people who talk too much whom the head of the house hold could/would buy and society would not blink twice at it. Different times to be sure...

It is very easy to find 1920's goods lists on the net, and it is also relatively easy to find earning values of various occupations in various states - one need only look online for the US Census material by Census. It is amazing what you can find in that.
__________________
Newest Alaconius Lecture now up:

https://www.worldanvil.com/w/scourge-of-shards-schpdx

Go to bottom of page to see lectures 1-11
hal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2022, 05:56 AM   #53
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

For what it is worth - any time I try to convert prices from one game system or currency system for use with GURPS - or vice versa, I make it a point now, to look at PURCHASING POWER before I go with any given "ratio of coins to a given GURPS Dollar" concept.

If for example, you find an item whose value requires a FULL month's income in GURPS for struggling income, then in the other game system or currency system, that same item should take about 1 month's income for a struggling job. Thus, if it is 30 silver coins in the other game system for a struggling job's income for a month, and in GURPS, a Struggling income provides $350 income with a cost of living for $300 (just pulling numbers out of thin air here for purposes of illustration), then the cost of the item should be 30 silver pennies. GURPS use of $4 = one Silver penny clearly doesn't work in this case. 350/4 ends up being 87 silver pennies.

My advice is simple enough - compare apples to apples, pears to pears (Or is it oranges to oranges?) in terms of purchasing power. It helps make things fall into sequence a lot easier.
__________________
Newest Alaconius Lecture now up:

https://www.worldanvil.com/w/scourge-of-shards-schpdx

Go to bottom of page to see lectures 1-11
hal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2022, 08:00 AM   #54
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I was working off the claim "GURPS works under the assumption that people at higher TL's can afford more stuff than those at lower TL's." — Varyon

I thought "By the 3/4 ratio" was made clear with the ($15,000/$20,000) ie (TL7 (1940)/TL8 (2004) average wealth) note.

If Varyon's claim is valid than if we take an item in 2004 $US and do the conversion we should get a value at least the same as was it was historically which since income between TL7 and TL8 increases 4/3 would mean the good would cost more proportionally.

If we plug $3.20 (2004) into a CGI calculator we get $US 0.24 not the historical 52 US¢ (pulled from "Here’s the Price of Milk the Year You Were Born" at Taste of Home) So by doing the conversion GURPS allows you to buy more "stuff" at the lower TLs as it lowballs the prices from what they were historically.
You're mixing up your money again. There's basically two ways to handle this, using GURPS wealth. The first is to just use the GURPS wealth rules and prices as-is, and for any item that isn't in the books (I don't think milk is given a price anywhere), either look up the current price and convert it to 2004 USD, or look up the price in 2004 USD (a quick bit of googling indicates an average of $4.40 US for a gallon of milk, which would be $2.81 in 2004, but we'll go with the $3.20 US that milk apparently actually cost in 2004). So, a gallon of milk costs $3.20 GURPS, which is 0.016% Average Starting Wealth at TL 8, 0.021% Average Starting Wealth at TL 7 - you can afford more milk at TL 8 than TL 7.

The other option is to convert your GURPS wealth to contemporary currency, and charge contemporary prices. $20,000 GURPS is $20,000 US in 2004, and a gallon of milk costs $3.20 US in 2004. $15,000 GURPS is $1,111.70 US in 1940 (which you'd round in some way - maybe just say Average is actually $1,000 - in play, but we'll just go with the raw numbers here), and a gallon of milk costs $0.54 US in 1940. So, at TL 8, a gallon of milk costs 0.016% Average Starting Wealth, while at TL 7, a gallon of milk costs 0.049% Average Starting Wealth - you can afford more milk at TL 8 than TL 7. The GURPS wealth rules understate the difference in this case - by quite a bit, honestly, given we're looking at x1.3 to proportional cost at TL 7 under the first case, but x3 under the second - and may well do so in many others, but the general trend - that you can buy more stuff at higher TL's - is maintained.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul

Last edited by Varyon; 08-08-2022 at 08:10 AM.
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2022, 12:18 PM   #55
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Well the Wealth trait hangs off of the average starting income of the TL — with a monthly range between the previous and next TL (Basic Set 517)

In certain situations Wealth is irrelevant.

Many late TL5+ solders have their equipment provided by their government so its cost is irrelevant. The same would be true of a Star Fleet crew though it would be the ship providing the stuff. James Bond inspired spies are much the same way.
The "average" wealth in the US today is far bigger than here in Brazil or in South Africa.

Regardless of that, the amount is the same, no matter if your character plays in Scandinavia, South East Asia or the Caribbean islands.

I dont think that "average" here means dividing the GDP of a location by the number of people; that's not it.

What the starting "average" wealth means is a life without much hardships but also without luxuries, given the TL of the setting, irregardless of the local economy.

A group of TL1 semi nomads may all have "Poor" or "Dead Broke" as their particular "average", due to how poor their civilization is. That doesnt mean their sheets have their "average" starting wealth being 0, it rather means that everybody in this tribe have "Dead Broke" in their sheets, as they are constantly starving.

People living in (the most boring RPG setting ever) "Grand Utopia" where EVERYBODY has access to a bunch of luxuries without any effort dont have their starting average wealth being $1.000.000, instead all those citizens have Wealth or more (perhaps even 1 or more Multimillionaire levels!) at their sheets, as a sort of "cultural trait" common to all.

The Wealth trait doesnt measure local economies, but rather the capabilities of individuals to have access to goods and services. Thus, someone with a Comfortable weath could be considered rich in a dirty poor society of mostly serfs, while someone with a Wealth level would be just a common citizen in a post scarcity Utopia.
KarlKost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2022, 02:50 PM   #56
maximara
On Notice
 
maximara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
The "average" wealth in the US today is far bigger than here in Brazil or in South Africa.

Regardless of that, the amount is the same, no matter if your character plays in Scandinavia, South East Asia or the Caribbean islands.
Which as the GURPSwiki points out is a problem. Heck even within the US there are huge variances though City Stats helps by creating a defacto adjustment to wealth because a city with a comfortable wealth level will also have a comfortable Cost of Living to meet the city's level of "average". That means earning an average income would likely be pushing the character to Struggling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
I dont think that "average" here means dividing the GDP of a location by the number of people; that's not it.

What the starting "average" wealth means is a life without much hardships but also without luxuries, given the TL of the setting, irregardless of the local economy.
That theory isn't supported by any of the GURPS books Classic or 4e that set the average wealth and gives you the price of goods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
A group of TL1 semi nomads may all have "Poor" or "Dead Broke" as their particular "average", due to how poor their civilization is. That doesnt mean their sheets have their "average" starting wealth being 0, it rather means that everybody in this tribe have "Dead Broke" in their sheets, as they are constantly starving.
But average GURPS wealth is set by the setting TL not by local conditions. If the tribe as a whole is "Dead Broke" than that would be part of the tribe template. Sort of like a Barbarian in D&D style game would have Low TL or a Azerothian Dwarf having High TL though determining the average for the TL hodgepodge Azeroth is would be a pain.
__________________
Help make a digital reference for GURPS by coming to the GURPS wiki and provide some information and links (such as to various Fanmade 4e Bestiaries) . Please, provide more then just a title and a page number.
maximara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2022, 03:09 PM   #57
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post

But average GURPS wealth is set by the setting TL not by local conditions. If the tribe as a whole is "Dead Broke" than that would be part of the tribe template. Sort of like a Barbarian in D&D style game would have Low TL or a Azerothian Dwarf having High TL though determining the average for the TL hodgepodge Azeroth is would be a pain.
That would be wrong. Pick any historical TL 1 to 3 culture and the majority of the population will have lower than so-called Average Wealth.
David Johnston2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2022, 03:53 PM   #58
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Which as the GURPSwiki points out is a problem. Heck even within the US there are huge variances though City Stats helps by creating a defacto adjustment to wealth
No it doesn't. City Stats has you make a note of the typical Wealth level of the inhabitants. That is not an adjustment; that is a description. In a Poor city, the typical inhabitant is Poor. There might be Dead Broke, Struggling, Average, Wealthy, and other inhabitants, but the typical inhabitant is Poor. Someone who is Average Wealth in this city has more wealth than the typical inhabitant.

Quote:
because a city with a comfortable wealth level will also have a comfortable Cost of Living to meet the city's level of "average". That means earning an average income would likely be pushing the character to Struggling.
A Comfortable city is one in which the typical inhabitant has Comfortable Wealth. Cost of Living is not determined by a city's Wealth level; it is determined separately for each inhabitant by that inhabitant's Status. A Poor person living in a Comfortable city still has a Poor job and can afford a Status -2 Cost of Living. The only thing it means to say that the city is Comfortable is that this Poor citizen is not living at the typical Wealth level. That doesn't change anything about their own Wealth level or their income or their Cost of Living.

Quote:
But average GURPS wealth is set by the setting TL not by local conditions.
No. A character's "starting wealth" (i.e., starting cash for player characters) is set by the campaign's TL and the character's Wealth level. If local conditions are that the typical person is Poor, then the only thing that happens if you take, say, Average Wealth is that you've got more Wealth than the typical citizen. You get whatever Wealth level you pay for regardless of how Wealthy the people around you are.

You're just letting the word "average" confuse you.

Quote:
If the tribe as a whole is "Dead Broke" than that would be part of the tribe template.
No it wouldn't. You can choose any available Wealth level. Unless there are usually NO exceptions to members of the tribe being Dead Broke (and I find the idea of an entire Dead Broke tribe to be utterly implausible), you should be free to choose any available Wealth level, just as a person living in an Average Wealth city can choose any available Wealth level, not just Average.

You might put a specific Wealth level in a character template to reflect a certain kind of character stereotype, but you wouldn't put it into a template just because it's the typical Wealth level around you.
Stormcrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2022, 04:17 PM   #59
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
A group of TL1 semi nomads may all have "Poor" or "Dead Broke" as their particular "average", due to how poor their civilization is. That doesnt mean their sheets have their "average" starting wealth being 0, it rather means that everybody in this tribe have "Dead Broke" in their sheets, as they are constantly starving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
But average GURPS wealth is set by the setting TL not by local conditions. If the tribe as a whole is "Dead Broke" than that would be part of the tribe template. Sort of like a Barbarian in D&D style game would have Low TL or a Azerothian Dwarf having High TL though determining the average for the TL hodgepodge Azeroth is would be a pain.
I don't see any incompatibility between these statements. Each character in that tribe who is at the typical tribal Wealth of Dead Broke has Dead Broke on their character sheet - this may be part of the template for being part of that tribe, but in that case it would still be worth [-25] and would still show up on the character sheet. The only difference that would be in play for being part of a template is that it may not count against the Disadvantage Limit, if the GM is using one (canonically, a racial template or similar is treated as a single trait; if the net value is positive, any Disadvantages included don't count against the limit; if the net value is negative, only the overall value of the racial template is counted against the limit).

I would add a clarification to maximara's statement, however - what you get out of Average Wealth is typically set by the TL, but there's nothing preventing a GM (or setting-designer) from changing this. As an example, DF is functionally around TL 4 (most TL 4 gear is present at normal prices, not at the doubled cost one would expect for being a TL early), yet someone with Average Wealth only has $1000 (rather than the $2000 that is the default for TL 4), and the other Wealth levels are relative to this.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2022, 05:27 PM   #60
thrash
 
thrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: traveller
Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanjo7Sagi View Post
That is my problem with Abstract Wealth. Unless you're going to buy something trivial, you'll have to roll for everything you want to buy. In a game that already has a reputation for having too many rolls.

I would have preferred that they had opted for a solution that simplified the rules for wealth, without this additional rolls.
Perhaps too simplified, but I constructed an Abstract Gear advantage to assign a point value to largely ignoring Wealth altogether.
thrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
prices

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.