Experience Points - Page 6

Nils_Lindeberg · 07-20-2020, 02:14 PM

I like your idea in the other thread Steve P, but it is a little too complicated for me.

Maybe just say that Staff spell works like any other spell. You learn the highest one, and get the others for free, just like you get 1-h fire for free if you learn 4-h fire. That would save some memory points.

And then you could just get mana based on your ST.
2: half ST (round down)
3: full ST
4: 1.5x ST
5: 2x ST

I have no problem with mages having a lot of mana available. It just makes the game more fun and they are not OP. The only OP is when you can dump a huge amount of mana into one spell. So we have already nerfed missile spells and the only other spell that needs a little bit of nerfing is Hammertouch. But I would rather make all X cost spells based on basic ST.

Like:
1die per 5 ST or some such.

The other set cost (forget about gold it is minor and wishes are optional), talents/spells could be solved by giving 1 talent/spell per attribute gain, and two per IQ gain.

That would mean that all characters slowly gained more skills, faster if you increase IQ and you could easily count backwards to see how many points your character is.

A 10/12/12 that started as a 10/10/12 will have gained 2DX and two more talents and have 14 talents. The same guy starting as 10/12/10 and gained 2 IQ would also have 14 talent points. And heroes can focus on ST and DX once they have high IQ enough to qualify for talents and still get more talents, even if it is a little slower.

While the wizard can improve DX and still get more spells and if they raise ST they will also increase their staff mana as an added bonus to make that choice a little more interesting. And the higher staff spell level, the more mana they would get for one more ST. And if they raise their IQ they can pick 2 new spells on the new IQ level which means they don't feel forced to start with a super high IQ just to not waste spells slot on lower level spells.

Either way, you would reduce XP to only be spent on attributes, nothing else. And no mix of exponential and set cost systems. And you still solve both Conan the wizard and the genius hero, without completely making them unplayable. And you don't have to bend over backwards to get into certain builds for fencing, UC or archery with a certain target adjDX. You can always pick things up later and adjust the attributes to fit those roles later without feeling that you gimp yourself.

TippetsTX · 07-20-2020, 03:43 PM

Nils, have you been playtesting this alternate advancement scheme?

Nils_Lindeberg · 07-20-2020, 05:09 PM

Not long enough to see the real long term consequences of it.

And the other method we use is the classic mIQ and fST where the fST has become mST for mana in your staff. We have gone a little bit back and forth on the cost, but 3mIQ and 3mST seems to be the consensus in our small gaming group.

Turning it over to automatic advancement like suggested are just on the drawing board, we convert characters back and forth to check the differences, but it makes each attribute raise bigger. So they should be more expensive. But we usually don't count XP but get an advancement when the GM feels it is a good milestone or at end of an adventure with some down time. About 1 every 3.5 nights of play. And that will probably be longer when they get higher attribute levels. And the first two raises usually come during the intro adventure or session 0, more or less.

Personally I favor a more straight approach like 1 extra night of playing per new point, so 1+2+3+4+5... nights of play. Preferably connected to a milestone, significant act, or down time of some sort.

Steve Plambeck · 07-21-2020, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

I like your idea in the other thread Steve P, but it is a little too complicated for me.

Maybe just say that Staff spell works like any other spell. You learn the highest one, and get the others for free, just like you get 1-h fire for free if you learn 4-h fire. That would save some memory points.

And then you could just get mana based on your ST.
2: half ST (round down)
3: full ST
4: 1.5x ST
5: 2x ST

You may be right Nils -- I over explained it. But you've got the solution right there. Whatever the theory behind something, all you really need for play is a little table like yours above. My whole long-winded post only boils down to saying:

IQ 11 - staff gets (ST - 6) storage
IQ 14 - staff gets (ST - 4) storage
IQ 17 - staff gets (ST - 2) storage
IQ 20 - staff gets (ST * 1) storage
IQ 23 - staff gets (ST * 2) storage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

talents/spells could be solved by giving 1 talent/spell per attribute gain, and two per IQ gain.

That would mean that all characters slowly gained more skills, faster if you increase IQ and you could easily count backwards to see how many points your character is.

Now this is a really exciting idea! This is great, getting rid of spending XP on talents/spells but without going back to the clunky slow way of original TFT, where it took an expensive IQ point increase to gain only 1 talent point.

It makes learning faster than it used to be, but not the runaway "talent bloat" Legacy could cause. This is the best of both worlds.

TippetsTX · 07-21-2020, 08:55 AM

I'm not sure... wouldn't such a model benefit wizard characters over heroes?

Hero talent progression assumes escalating costs for talents (most over IQ 12 or so will be 2, 3 or even 4 points), but wizards never pay more than 1 point for their spells. Seems like wizards would become spell-casting beasts with a large arsenal of magiks fairly quickly under such a system.

TBH, I prefer the idea of players having to make choices on where to spend their XP, whether on stats or talents or something else. The problem with the current system is that this choice doesn't really exist because the model clearly encourages XP going to stats first, then mana (if the character is a wizard) and then almost exclusively towards wishes, talents and spells.

I want to keep stat progression as a viable option throughout the character's career.

hcobb · 07-21-2020, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I want to keep stat progression as a viable option throughout the character's career.

Then remove the cliff edge at 40 attributes with quadratic rather than exponential costs.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/new_spells.html#XP

TippetsTX · 07-21-2020, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

Then remove the cliff edge at 40 attributes with quadratic rather than exponential costs.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/new_spells.html#XP

I did that (a bit differently than you) and I also allow for stat progression over 40-points, but the solution isn't quite that simple IMO. You also need to make sure that the escalating costs for stats AND talents don't completely eclipse one another which is one of the core design goals of my 'Character Tier' structure.

Nils_Lindeberg · 07-21-2020, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

Then remove the cliff edge at 40 attributes with quadratic rather than exponential costs.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/new_spells.html#XP

It is better than RAW, but there is still a cut off point. Every player and every build will be slightly different, but there will always be a break-off point where the return on 1 more talent is worth more than the attribute gain you get from that same XP. Set costs and increasing costs don't mix. It really is that simple.

So if you don't want to have a system with separate mIQ points bought with attributes points at a certain ratio, usually 2 or 3 for one attribute point. Or you change attribute cost to be a set value and then decrease the XP gain per game night if you want leveling up to be slower over time, you can't get around the mixing problem.

My solution does take away from the choice of mIQ or an attribute. And instead you only have attribute to chose from (attribute and talent point or IQ and double talent point), but you skip the book keeping and extra rules that comes with mIQ. And if you gain talent/spells every level up, more if you do IQ, you still keep the balance between the attribute, because plain IQ is devalued after initial allocation otherwise and you still get more talents/spells over time.

Answer to earlier post:
I have no problems with wizards gaining too many spells or heroes talents that cost more. This is not a balance problem at the start, since it will be the same as RAW, and everyone gains talent/spells at a faster rate, so the GM needs to slow down the power creep a little. But it does take away the hero genius and a wizard doesn't have to start at max IQ. Two good things for character variation and build viability. So if there is a balancing problem, it is one that already exist today since both Heroes and Wizards pay the same amount of XP for talents/skills. And in the old TFT you did get 1 talent/skill with each IQ increase post character creation. And that wasn't a balancing issue back then.

And when you only have attribute increases, there is no mixing of set costs and increasing costs. And the rule change can be 2 sentences long and actually makes the over all rules simpler.

TippetsTX · 07-21-2020, 04:47 PM

I certainly agree that trying to accommodate both fixed costs and escalating costs for XP-driven benefits is problematic, possibly even a significant flaw in Legacy's progression model. I still prefer keeping stat increases and talent or spell acquisition in separate decision-silos, however, which meant I needed to develop a solution that altered the paradigm a bit. In my system, everything gets more expensive (XP-wise) as the character advances.

larsdangly · 07-21-2020, 05:37 PM

I kind of like the way it works, actually. Intentional or not, it promotes a way of developing your characters that feels natural (or at last satisfying) to me - your first dozen adventures or so are all about developing your raw physical and intellectual potential (your stats), but once you take on your fully developed from you transition to learning skills, spells, enchanting your mana staff or stocking up on lesser wishes - all things that build out your kit of specialized tools. And that latter kind of development just goes on and on until you get murdered by a lucky arrow (so, 6-12 months).

07-20-2020, 02:14 PM	#51
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Experience Points I like your idea in the other thread Steve P, but it is a little too complicated for me. Maybe just say that Staff spell works like any other spell. You learn the highest one, and get the others for free, just like you get 1-h fire for free if you learn 4-h fire. That would save some memory points. And then you could just get mana based on your ST. 2: half ST (round down) 3: full ST 4: 1.5x ST 5: 2x ST I have no problem with mages having a lot of mana available. It just makes the game more fun and they are not OP. The only OP is when you can dump a huge amount of mana into one spell. So we have already nerfed missile spells and the only other spell that needs a little bit of nerfing is Hammertouch. But I would rather make all X cost spells based on basic ST. Like: 1die per 5 ST or some such. The other set cost (forget about gold it is minor and wishes are optional), talents/spells could be solved by giving 1 talent/spell per attribute gain, and two per IQ gain. That would mean that all characters slowly gained more skills, faster if you increase IQ and you could easily count backwards to see how many points your character is. A 10/12/12 that started as a 10/10/12 will have gained 2DX and two more talents and have 14 talents. The same guy starting as 10/12/10 and gained 2 IQ would also have 14 talent points. And heroes can focus on ST and DX once they have high IQ enough to qualify for talents and still get more talents, even if it is a little slower. While the wizard can improve DX and still get more spells and if they raise ST they will also increase their staff mana as an added bonus to make that choice a little more interesting. And the higher staff spell level, the more mana they would get for one more ST. And if they raise their IQ they can pick 2 new spells on the new IQ level which means they don't feel forced to start with a super high IQ just to not waste spells slot on lower level spells. Either way, you would reduce XP to only be spent on attributes, nothing else. And no mix of exponential and set cost systems. And you still solve both Conan the wizard and the genius hero, without completely making them unplayable. And you don't have to bend over backwards to get into certain builds for fencing, UC or archery with a certain target adjDX. You can always pick things up later and adjust the attributes to fit those roles later without feeling that you gimp yourself.

07-20-2020, 03:43 PM	#52
TippetsTX Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: North Texas	Re: Experience Points Nils, have you been playtesting this alternate advancement scheme? __________________ “No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos

07-20-2020, 05:09 PM	#53
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Experience Points Not long enough to see the real long term consequences of it. And the other method we use is the classic mIQ and fST where the fST has become mST for mana in your staff. We have gone a little bit back and forth on the cost, but 3mIQ and 3mST seems to be the consensus in our small gaming group. Turning it over to automatic advancement like suggested are just on the drawing board, we convert characters back and forth to check the differences, but it makes each attribute raise bigger. So they should be more expensive. But we usually don't count XP but get an advancement when the GM feels it is a good milestone or at end of an adventure with some down time. About 1 every 3.5 nights of play. And that will probably be longer when they get higher attribute levels. And the first two raises usually come during the intro adventure or session 0, more or less. Personally I favor a more straight approach like 1 extra night of playing per new point, so 1+2+3+4+5... nights of play. Preferably connected to a milestone, significant act, or down time of some sort. Last edited by Nils_Lindeberg; 07-20-2020 at 05:13 PM.

07-21-2020, 08:55 AM	#55
TippetsTX Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: North Texas	Re: Experience Points I'm not sure... wouldn't such a model benefit wizard characters over heroes? Hero talent progression assumes escalating costs for talents (most over IQ 12 or so will be 2, 3 or even 4 points), but wizards never pay more than 1 point for their spells. Seems like wizards would become spell-casting beasts with a large arsenal of magiks fairly quickly under such a system. TBH, I prefer the idea of players having to make choices on where to spend their XP, whether on stats or talents or something else. The problem with the current system is that this choice doesn't really exist because the model clearly encourages XP going to stats first, then mana (if the character is a wizard) and then almost exclusively towards wishes, talents and spells. I want to keep stat progression as a viable option throughout the character's career. __________________ “No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos

07-21-2020, 04:47 PM	#59
TippetsTX Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: North Texas	Re: Experience Points I certainly agree that trying to accommodate both fixed costs and escalating costs for XP-driven benefits is problematic, possibly even a significant flaw in Legacy's progression model. I still prefer keeping stat increases and talent or spell acquisition in separate decision-silos, however, which meant I needed to develop a solution that altered the paradigm a bit. In my system, everything gets more expensive (XP-wise) as the character advances. __________________ “No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos

07-21-2020, 05:37 PM	#60
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Experience Points I kind of like the way it works, actually. Intentional or not, it promotes a way of developing your characters that feels natural (or at last satisfying) to me - your first dozen adventures or so are all about developing your raw physical and intellectual potential (your stats), but once you take on your fully developed from you transition to learning skills, spells, enchanting your mana staff or stocking up on lesser wishes - all things that build out your kit of specialized tools. And that latter kind of development just goes on and on until you get murdered by a lucky arrow (so, 6-12 months).