GURPS Magic: The Least of Spells

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Gumby Bush

The very idea of Least Spells provides the germ of an idea which might be expanded into such a thing. I think the thread of new Least Spells shows that you could produce that feeling without non-Least Spells, but we've been relying pretty heavily on comparisons to Magic spells.

Some of it may depend on how you use it, too. If almost everyone (\in the setting picks up a Least Spell or two, then I think you're likely to wind up feeling like magic is everywhere, even though most spells are unlikely to fundamentally alter the setting.

Alright, cool, thanks.

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

Yes; and even using the regular Magic system. Although, I limit characters to a maximum of 5 perks (can't remember if that's in the rules or not).

That's a recommendation for regular perks. Combat perks follow their own rules. And I personally think that power perks should follow their own rules, too, on how many you can buy. I've never put a limit directly on those myself because sometimes you want or need a lot to really have the right 'feel' for your power (but also limited Modular Abilities can cover that well and 'give' you far more perks than any limit would establish).

[Plane]

These new spells sound like great choices for Wizardly Dabbler perks.

Originally Posted by Anders

So if you use the Ritual Magic system (not to be confused with Ritual Path Magic) I would suggest giving these a prerequisite count of -1, so you cast them at College skill (or Path skill, because god knows there's not enough confusion about this already) +1.

Or we could just increase the effective prereq count of all other rituals by 1 to give them another -1 default to their paths. That system is pretty powerful, it could use a nerf.

As is, the more spells we add to the repertoire with additional sourcebooks, the more inherently powerful Ritual Magic becomes compared to the standard system!

It's especially powerful when we keep in mind that the various gate/summoning spells and metamorphosis into various animals all require distinct skills, and having the Path gives you access to ALL of them as default techniques.

Even with the Magical Styles perk allowing use of Thaumatology's optional rule for magic spells (skills) defaulting to one another at -4, it still seriously lags behind "Path of X" in terms of the breadth of options you get and how cheap it is to level up a vast swath of spells.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by maximara

Actually, even though they cost $700/point, Paut Talismans are more likely as a Powerstone requires Magery 2 and 10 Prerequisites to make.

10 prereqs in standard OR just defaulting to Path of Enchantment as a -10 technique if using Ritual Magic...

As for Magery 2, my headcanon is that Magery 1 mages can use "Extra Effort" rules from GURPS Powers to temporarily have Magery 2. Given that EE requires a successful will roll every MINUTE (and spending FP) and that failure risks CRIPPLING the ability (magery gone for a while) it seems like it would be very difficult to keep it boosted +100% for the entire one-hour-minimum (60 cumulative successes) needed to do Quick and Dirty Enchantment. If a mage SOMEHOW succeeds at this, they deserve their Powerstone IMO.

Even though William Headly did not explicitly create his staff (maybe he just FOUND his signature gear) my headcanon is it includes a Manastone and that he created it himself, so giving Headly a means of temporarily boosting Ritual Magery 1 to Ritual Magery 2 via exploiting Powers' EE rules satisfies my headcanon.

This is probably actually noncanon/illegal (something about being unable to use Extra Effort on Talents, and that Magery isn't technically a "power" because it lacks a "power modifier") so you could keep it off-limits to standard mages and perhaps require either a "Rules Exemption" perk or a Cosmic +50% enhancement to purchase the privilege of using EE with Magery.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Plane

10 prereqs in standard OR just defaulting to Path of Enchantment as a -10 technique if using Ritual Magic...

As for Magery 2, my headcanon is that Magery 1 mages can use "Extra Effort" rules from GURPS Powers to temporarily have Magery 2. Given that EE requires a successful will roll every MINUTE (and spending FP) and that failure risks CRIPPLING the ability (magery gone for a while) it seems like it would be very difficult to keep it boosted +100% for the entire one-hour-minimum (60 cumulative successes) needed to do Quick and Dirty Enchantment. If a mage SOMEHOW succeeds at this, they deserve their Powerstone IMO.

Even though William Headly did not explicitly create his staff (maybe he just FOUND his signature gear) my headcanon is it includes a Manastone and that he created it himself, so giving Headly a means of temporarily boosting Ritual Magery 1 to Ritual Magery 2 via exploiting Powers' EE rules satisfies my headcanon.

I personally go with the rules in Thaumatology for alternate prerequisite costs so no spells require Magery.

Even if the EE idea you're talking about were possible, Headley doesn't have Path of Enchantment, so with his Thaumatology-6 default and -11 from prerequisites, his effective Manastone level would be 0. Really don't think he made his own manastone.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by Plane

10 prereqs in standard OR just defaulting to Path of Enchantment as a -10 technique if using Ritual Magic...

Given that you need skill 15 with a spell to do enchantment, that implies either ridiculous levels of college skill or most of that -10 bought off with technique (which doesn't really work out cheaper than just dropping a point into the prerequisite spells under the standard system).

----

My instinct, if using these spells under ritual magic, would be to allow Average skill spells to be cast at +1 skill relative to what the prerequisite count would suggest (so college skill +1 for these), since Very Hard spells are canonically cast at -1 compared to hard spells.

[johndallman]

I've just realised a problem for those who rely on Ack. It's undoubtedly possible to create an IQ/H or IQ/VH spell that works the same way, but allows you to lie about who you are.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I've just realised a problem for those who rely on Ack. It's undoubtedly possible to create an IQ/H or IQ/VH spell that works the same way, but allows you to lie about who you are.

A casting of Identify Spell by the mage can clear that up (I would allow the mage receiving the Ack to count as its subject, meaning no range penalty for Identify Spell, but I'm not certain the rules unambiguously support that).

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I've just realised a problem for those who rely on Ack. It's undoubtedly possible to create an IQ/H or IQ/VH spell that works the same way, but allows you to lie about who you are.

I would call that an opportunity for in-game intrigue, rather than a problem with Ack. ;)

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Plane

10 prereqs in standard OR just defaulting to Path of Enchantment as a -10 technique if using Ritual Magic...

As for Magery 2, my headcanon is that Magery 1 mages can use "Extra Effort" rules from GURPS Powers to temporarily have Magery 2. Given that EE requires a successful will roll every MINUTE (and spending FP) and that failure risks CRIPPLING the ability (magery gone for a while) it seems like it would be very difficult to keep it boosted +100% for the entire one-hour-minimum (60 cumulative successes) needed to do Quick and Dirty Enchantment. If a mage SOMEHOW succeeds at this, they deserve their Powerstone IMO.

Even though William Headly did not explicitly create his staff (maybe he just FOUND his signature gear) my headcanon is it includes a Manastone and that he created it himself, so giving Headly a means of temporarily boosting Ritual Magery 1 to Ritual Magery 2 via exploiting Powers' EE rules satisfies my headcanon.

This is probably actually noncanon/illegal (something about being unable to use Extra Effort on Talents, and that Magery isn't technically a "power" because it lacks a "power modifier") so you could keep it off-limits to standard mages and perhaps require either a "Rules Exemption" perk or a Cosmic +50% enhancement to purchase the privilege of using EE with Magery.

Several things here.

1) This is so Rube Goldberg that it isn't funny which violates the second rule of a game (first being keep it fun) - keep it simple.

2) This relates to point 1: Occam's Razor suggests Headly either found the staff or had it made for him.

3) We KNOW William Headly could NOT have done as you suggested because his Thaumatology skill is 14 and "College skills have the core skill as a prerequisite and may never exceed the core skill." (B242) So he can never get to the skill 15 needed to even use the Path of Enchantment. Worse yet Path of Enchantment is NOT amount the three paths (Communication & Empathy, Gate, and Necromancy) he does have. That means per RAW that he is -6 (ouch) to Path of Enchantment in addition to the -11 for Staff (B242, M235) But his skill is below that critical 15 so even if he knew both Path of Enchantment and Staff it would do him no good. Oh BTW that "-10" for Powerstone was a test to see if anyone who replied actually knew the rules; it's actually -11 (M232).

4) The Multiple spell success chart (derived from the Powerstone table in The Compleat Powerstone) shows that this only has a 25.9% chance of being able to work. And then there is only a 16.2% chance the thing will have no quirks. The cumulative chance on that is around 4% or a 5 or lower on a 3d6.

5) You omitted the list of pro and cons of Paut Talisman vs Powerstone which showed the other advantages of the method. Here is the full list again:

Pros of Paut Talismans vs Powerstones
*Magery 2 and spells not required to make: Since Paut involves Alchemy, Magery 2 and the 11 spells needed to learn Powerstone are not required.
*Faster process at higher energy: It takes 100 days to make a 6 energy Paut Talisman rather then 120 days for a 6 point Powerstone via the Slow and Sure process.
*Option for better base success rate: Since Talisman making is not enchanting, with high enough skill a 16 can succeed and only an 18 is a critical failure.
*Better cumulative success rate: Since a 6 energy Powerstone takes multiple castings there is only a 90.7% chance the item will survive the process rather then the 95.4% for a 6 energy Paut Talisman.
*No quirks: Unlike a Powerstone, a Paut Talisman will have no quirks - either the process works or it doesn't.
*Fixed "recharge" rate: The break even point for a Paut Talisman vs a Powerstone is 2 energy in normal mana. A Paut Talisman recharges far faster in low mana then a Powerstone.
*Multiple Talismans can be used together: There is nothing in the RAW that says that multiple Talismans cannot be used together. This allows a mage to use as many Paut Talismans as they can can wear.
*Other Talismans can be made: Since all elixirs are based off of the alchemy skill the crafting of other Talismans is possible.

Cons of Paut Talismans vs Powerstones
*Expensive: At $700/energy point a Paut Talisman is far more expensive then a Powerstone of the same energy. In fact, a Paut Talisman does not become less expensive until around 40 energy which is effectively impossible to make.
*Practical Energy limitation: Since each dose (energy point) is -1 for each dose beyond the first Paut Talismans beyond 6 energy are extremely rare.
*Paut Talismans cannot be made more efficient: They must be separate items and cannot be part of another magic item.
*Requires activation in Low Mana: a Talisman requires a roll against the effective skill of the alchemist who originally created it.
*Fixed "recharge" rate: the Classic version of Charge Powerstone and the Mana Pool quirk dramatically changes the break even point in terms of "recharge" rate.
*Must be Worn to "recharge": A Talisman must be worn to come out of dormancy. "A talisman stashed in a chest or backpack will lie dormant indefinitely."
*Amount of Energy cannot be improved: The energy of a Paut Talisman is set at creation. More energy can be added to a Powerstone after creation vis the Powerstone spell.

What sane mage would go though the convoluted (and insanely risky) method you suggest rather then learn Alchemy at 20 and put 5 points into the Paut technique?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I've just realised a problem for those who rely on Ack. It's undoubtedly possible to create an IQ/H or IQ/VH spell that works the same way, but allows you to lie about who you are.

Possibly with Hide Thoughts or False Aura as a prerequisite.