Help with an Affliction? ATR + DTR + ?

JulianLW · 02-13-2022, 10:19 AM

Hello all!

I don't really have a great understanding of some of the more complicated Affliction builds, so I thought I'd just ask for help with this from the forumites who are better at this than I am.

I'd like to build a power that is Altered Time Rate the way you might think ATR is supposed to work from reading the description, i.e. you really are twice as fast as everyone else - and everyone else is moving at half your speed. With ATR as written, you get to have 2 maneuvers, but everyone gets to defend at normal speed and act at normal speed during their turn.

So, how would you build a power that really does double (or triple or whatever) your time rate? My initial thought is that this involves inflicting Decreased Time Rate 1 on everything and everyone else - as well as slowing their defenses, which, per GURPS RAW, violate how we normally imagine time to work.

I looked at the Deceleration ability in Aleksei Isachenko's article "Mind Over Time" article (on his Chronokinesis Power) in Pyramid 4/3, and that has, it seems, the groundwork for everything I'm looking for: Afflicting Decreased Time Rate and a technique for lowering DX, but it targets a single opponent - and doesn't affect the world.... .

I think the correct build would be an Affliction that was an Aura with a huge Area Effect, Cosmic: Irresistible, Reduced Time, and I don't know what all else....

I'm sure this will be a very expensive ability, especially if it's leveled, i.e. each level of "true" ATR is an additional level of DTR, not to mention the "Afflictions and Inanimate Targets" rule on Powers 40.

I know there are folks on this forum who can whip up this ability and not miss anything - but I'm not one of them! So if anyone feels like taking a crack at it, I'd really appreciate that!

Julian

Varyon · 02-13-2022, 10:31 AM

The typical way to do it is have a character with ATR alternate between All Out Attack (Committed or Double) and All Out Defense (Focused Defense or Double). The character has an easier time hitting targets (and can turn this into a defense penalty on their part, via Deceptive Attack), and because he has more time to react, an easier time avoiding getting hit. If that's insufficient, consider giving the character a bonus with all combat skills; that would technically be worth [15] per +1 as a Talent, although [10] is arguably more fair, given [15] is enough for +1 to all DX rolls. You'd also want to boost Basic Speed, for [5] per +0.25, to have Dodge keep up to some degree with Parry. Or just buy up DX. Again, this represents being able to take your time in lining up attacks, which can either make it easier for you to hit or harder for the foe to defend (via Deceptive Attack). +4 per level of ATR should suffice.

JulianLW · 02-13-2022, 02:23 PM

Yes, but how would you model a speedster like Quicksilver in X-Men: Days of Future Past?

The scene where he runs around a kitchen in the Pentagon basement and attacks a dozen guards? None of those guards gets a Dodge or Parry because he's just moving too fast.

But according to GURPS RAW, I could give a character 1000 levels of ATR and each of those guards still gets to dodge my attack by retreating and rolling under 11 or whatever. That's not what would happen if you were really moving twice as fast (or five times as fast or whatever) as everyone else.

EDIT: As I was typing this, I realized that Bullet Time from Gun Fu could do exactly what Quicksilver does:

"Entering Bullet Time gives the hero one turn to do anything that he could do with a normal turn ..." And that means that a character with ATR gets one turn's worth of actions with a single instance of Bullet Time, i.e. with ATR 6, he gets to do 7 maneuvers with one use of Bullet Time.

"All-Out Attack, Attack, or Move and Attack maneuver to make as many attacks as his guns and abilities allow. Roll to hit normally. The targets are defenseless!" (Gun Fu 14)

This costs 3 character points per instance, and there's even an option - I guess it'd be an Extra Option Perk - for Bullet Time in Bulk. Okay. So the answer to the question I've asked doesn't have to be a complicated Affliction build. It can be one or more levels of ATR, Enhanced Move, etc., and a Wildcard Skill with enough Wildcard Points to enter Bullet Time.

Still. I'm wondering how to model a super who is "twice as fast" (or three or four or five times as fast) all the time?

Varyon · 02-13-2022, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Yes, but how would you model a speedster like Quicksilver in X-Men: Days of Future Past?

The scene where he runs around a kitchen in the Pentagon basement and attacks a dozen guards? None of those guards gets a Dodge or Parry because he's just moving too fast.

But according to GURPS RAW, I could give a character 1000 levels of ATR and each of those guards still gets to dodge my attack by retreating and rolling under 11 or whatever. That's not what would happen if you were really moving twice as fast (or five times as fast or whatever) as everyone else.

As I said, give the character +4 to combat skills (and +1 to Dodge) for every level of ATR (but note you have to pay for this - [40] for the +4 to combat skills, [15] for the +1 to Dodge). If the character can hit a dozen guards in a second, that implies at least ATR 11, for +44 to skill (and +11 to Dodge). Taking -20 to hit against each foe puts them each at -10 to defend (which basically means "crit only" for most foes), and you still have a +14 to spend on Rapid Strike, striking specific hit locations, etc.

Bullet Time can be an option, but personally I'd be disinclined to allow an Impulse Buy of "I win." It also only lets you do that kind of stuff from time to time, while increasing skill/etc appropriately for actually moving twice (or 3x, or 4x, or whatever) as fast as your foes works all the time.

sir_pudding · 02-13-2022, 08:53 PM

You can also consider Invisibility, if you really are moving "faster than the eye".

zoncxs · 02-13-2022, 09:21 PM

4e Supers page 41, Wildcard Power.

For any speedster I make, I always give them ATR! (Power Modifier, -10%) [360 per level]

The speedster will be able to do anything that they can describe a speedster to be capable of (that cost no more than 90cp per level of ATR).

The Flash would have at least ATR! 4 (speed force, -10%) [1440].

That give him 360 points for any effect that he can do.

Run fast? Enhanced speed 7.5 (speed force, -10%, second nature, +150%) [360], that's, assuming basic move 5: 960 yards per second (or in GURPS terms 1920 mph). And thats being able to go from 0 to 960 yps, turn on a dime, not have to worry about DX rolls for turning, and your step is also 960 yards. Did I mention that is while also using ATR 4? Which really means you got a move speed of 4800 yards per second (ATR 4 means you get 5 maneuvers, 960 x 5 = 4800), or 9600mph.

Fnordianslip · 02-15-2022, 09:58 AM

I'll second the Wildcard Power idea here. What Quicksilver does in that scene could also be modeled pretty easily with an are of effect attack. The explanation is him zipping around kicking butt, the effect is something like a 2d crushing attack with an area of effect and selective targets. With a Wildcard power like Zoncxs suggests, you'd just eyeball the point value and say, "Yup, you could totally afford an area punch/grapple/knockback attack with 360 points and the explanation of super speed. Roll those damage dice."

In my experience, Wildcard Powers let you dramatically speed up gameplay for high point value supers. Players can also map out some uses ahead of time if they want, which makes it all the faster.

02-13-2022, 10:19 AM	#1
JulianLW Join Date: Apr 2019	Help with an Affliction? ATR + DTR + ? Hello all! I don't really have a great understanding of some of the more complicated Affliction builds, so I thought I'd just ask for help with this from the forumites who are better at this than I am. I'd like to build a power that is Altered Time Rate the way you might think ATR is supposed to work from reading the description, i.e. you really are twice as fast as everyone else - and everyone else is moving at half your speed. With ATR as written, you get to have 2 maneuvers, but everyone gets to defend at normal speed and act at normal speed during their turn. So, how would you build a power that really does double (or triple or whatever) your time rate? My initial thought is that this involves inflicting Decreased Time Rate 1 on everything and everyone else - as well as slowing their defenses, which, per GURPS RAW, violate how we normally imagine time to work. I looked at the Deceleration ability in Aleksei Isachenko's article "Mind Over Time" article (on his Chronokinesis Power) in Pyramid 4/3, and that has, it seems, the groundwork for everything I'm looking for: Afflicting Decreased Time Rate and a technique for lowering DX, but it targets a single opponent - and doesn't affect the world.... . I think the correct build would be an Affliction that was an Aura with a huge Area Effect, Cosmic: Irresistible, Reduced Time, and I don't know what all else.... I'm sure this will be a very expensive ability, especially if it's leveled, i.e. each level of "true" ATR is an additional level of DTR, not to mention the "Afflictions and Inanimate Targets" rule on Powers 40. I know there are folks on this forum who can whip up this ability and not miss anything - but I'm not one of them! So if anyone feels like taking a crack at it, I'd really appreciate that! Julian

02-13-2022, 10:31 AM	#2
Varyon Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: Help with an Affliction? ATR + DTR + ? The typical way to do it is have a character with ATR alternate between All Out Attack (Committed or Double) and All Out Defense (Focused Defense or Double). The character has an easier time hitting targets (and can turn this into a defense penalty on their part, via Deceptive Attack), and because he has more time to react, an easier time avoiding getting hit. If that's insufficient, consider giving the character a bonus with all combat skills; that would technically be worth [15] per +1 as a Talent, although [10] is arguably more fair, given [15] is enough for +1 to all DX rolls. You'd also want to boost Basic Speed, for [5] per +0.25, to have Dodge keep up to some degree with Parry. Or just buy up DX. Again, this represents being able to take your time in lining up attacks, which can either make it easier for you to hit or harder for the foe to defend (via Deceptive Attack). +4 per level of ATR should suffice. __________________ GURPS Overhaul

02-13-2022, 02:23 PM	#3
JulianLW Join Date: Apr 2019	Re: Help with an Affliction? ATR + DTR + ? Yes, but how would you model a speedster like Quicksilver in X-Men: Days of Future Past? The scene where he runs around a kitchen in the Pentagon basement and attacks a dozen guards? None of those guards gets a Dodge or Parry because he's just moving too fast. But according to GURPS RAW, I could give a character 1000 levels of ATR and each of those guards still gets to dodge my attack by retreating and rolling under 11 or whatever. That's not what would happen if you were really moving twice as fast (or five times as fast or whatever) as everyone else. EDIT: As I was typing this, I realized that Bullet Time from Gun Fu could do exactly what Quicksilver does: "Entering Bullet Time gives the hero one turn to do anything that he could do with a normal turn ..." And that means that a character with ATR gets one turn's worth of actions with a single instance of Bullet Time, i.e. with ATR 6, he gets to do 7 maneuvers with one use of Bullet Time. "All-Out Attack, Attack, or Move and Attack maneuver to make as many attacks as his guns and abilities allow. Roll to hit normally. The targets are defenseless!" (Gun Fu 14) This costs 3 character points per instance, and there's even an option - I guess it'd be an Extra Option Perk - for Bullet Time in Bulk. Okay. So the answer to the question I've asked doesn't have to be a complicated Affliction build. It can be one or more levels of ATR, Enhanced Move, etc., and a Wildcard Skill with enough Wildcard Points to enter Bullet Time. Still. I'm wondering how to model a super who is "twice as fast" (or three or four or five times as fast) all the time?

02-13-2022, 08:53 PM	#5
sir_pudding Wielder of Smart Pants Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ventura CA	Re: Help with an Affliction? ATR + DTR + ? You can also consider Invisibility, if you really are moving "faster than the eye".

02-13-2022, 09:21 PM	#6
zoncxs Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: earth....I think.	Re: Help with an Affliction? ATR + DTR + ? 4e Supers page 41, Wildcard Power. For any speedster I make, I always give them ATR! (Power Modifier, -10%) [360 per level] The speedster will be able to do anything that they can describe a speedster to be capable of (that cost no more than 90cp per level of ATR). The Flash would have at least ATR! 4 (speed force, -10%) [1440]. That give him 360 points for any effect that he can do. Run fast? Enhanced speed 7.5 (speed force, -10%, second nature, +150%) [360], that's, assuming basic move 5: 960 yards per second (or in GURPS terms 1920 mph). And thats being able to go from 0 to 960 yps, turn on a dime, not have to worry about DX rolls for turning, and your step is also 960 yards. Did I mention that is while also using ATR 4? Which really means you got a move speed of 4800 yards per second (ATR 4 means you get 5 maneuvers, 960 x 5 = 4800), or 9600mph. __________________ Shen Shanlin Cryo Soldier Cris Jedi Zero Agent Chaos Octavian Kreel

02-15-2022, 09:58 AM	#7
Fnordianslip Join Date: Dec 2005	Re: Help with an Affliction? ATR + DTR + ? I'll second the Wildcard Power idea here. What Quicksilver does in that scene could also be modeled pretty easily with an are of effect attack. The explanation is him zipping around kicking butt, the effect is something like a 2d crushing attack with an area of effect and selective targets. With a Wildcard power like Zoncxs suggests, you'd just eyeball the point value and say, "Yup, you could totally afford an area punch/grapple/knockback attack with 360 points and the explanation of super speed. Roll those damage dice." In my experience, Wildcard Powers let you dramatically speed up gameplay for high point value supers. Players can also map out some uses ahead of time if they want, which makes it all the faster.