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Old 03-06-2018, 10:45 AM   #221
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I'm reading Will McLean's blog and I find it fascinating. Useful for my fantasy campaign, as well, where one PC is a knight who fights in tourneys and performs various feats of arms when he is not slaying dragons, questing for ancient relics, wrestling fearsome demons and rescuing fair maidens.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think he's ever inquired about the marital status or sexual experience of any rescuee. I'm not certain about it myself, I don't think it's the usual state, but I suppose the reincarnated ancient dragon in a young girl's body might count.
I am glad that you find it helpful! The special thing about Will was that he spent a lot of time reading Middle French texts, while also making and using medieval things. So that series of blog posts is a pretty good overview of late medieval armoured combat as a whole, even though you will want fencing manuals and demonstrations to get the technical details.

It is a lot easier to suggest things to read than to try to answer your specific questions for free.

If they can tailor the mail right, it should not be a big deal over the clothes underneath. I don't know how thick the kevlar padding you are thinking of is though ... generally thinner, like 3-6 mm, works better, but some of the "to the pain!" fighters layer on more.

If you want a helmet 6.6 mm thick in front, you might try an armet with wrapper. I can't really comment on the feasability of types of armour which never existed, like the rifle-proof visor you are talking about, though.

They don't have to know what the visor is proofed against. Fiore has a few lessons like that: "stab him in the visor, then if that does not work try flipping it open! Get him in a lock and give him a few thrusts in the back to see if his armour is weak there, and if that does not work try something else." I don't know what I would make a 21st century person roll to guess where low-tech armour is weaker.
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:45 AM   #222
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

Thinking about PC reactions to all this, taking a few rocket-propelled grenades along seems like a good idea, in case they get in a fight with vehicle-mounted enemies. And after seeing Vargas in action, the temptation to use one on him would be strong.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:45 PM   #223
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

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Thinking about PC reactions to all this, taking a few rocket-propelled grenades along seems like a good idea, in case they get in a fight with vehicle-mounted enemies. And after seeing Vargas in action, the temptation to use one on him would be strong.
For some strange reason, Onyx Rain didn't want to give us any heavy ordnance. Probably because we're not supposed to invade Mexico! We're there to make an offer, not shoot anybody.

We did get permission to carry weapons for protection, because we're legitimately at risk of being the targets of a kidnapping attempt. But somehow, no one felt rocket-propelled grenades were vital equipment for emergency self-defence.

The weapons for self-defence were acquired from a black market contact in Mexico. One PC did try to buy grenades, but when she heard the $500 asking price, she backed out. We weren't supplied with an infinite supply of black funds, after all.

We bought 9x19mm pistols and a couple of AR-15 type rifles, as well as an AK-type.
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:24 PM   #224
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

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The most important small detail is probably 'What weak points can be spotted with an Observation or Per check, how hard are they to hit and what DR does he have there?'

It would be enormously narratively satisfying if a combat encounter could be ended with a crippling injury to the knee, elbow or the arm pit, inflicted either with a firearm from CQB distances or with a fighting knife in a grappling match.

...

If there are mail voiders over the ballistic polymer, the DR becomes something like DR 14/9. That pretty much rules out using a melee weapon, but still makes it possible to disable Vargas by firing several rifle rounds into his armpit, knee or elbow, which he might survive, but have cool scars, a limp or a painfully stiff arm, directly tracable to PC-action, which would obviously increase his Supervillain value enormously.

Unfortunately, the odds are that the best target will turn out to be the eye slit or otherwise somehow through the visor. This is good for my PC, as he is quite capable of putting a controlled pair of 9mm rounds through each eye from fifty feet away, but that tends not to be the sort of injury that leads to merely a temporary victory over a personal nemesis who survives to have a long and colourful career.

Maybe Vargas wears a sealed helmet that sort of looks like a historical one, but has ballistic glass over the areas that would otherwise be uncovered. How might that work?

It would probably play havoc with his situational awareness, as his hearing would be pretty much worthless and his field of vision seems likely to be limited too, not to mention that this sort of thing probably gets hot as hell even in cold weather. But it might be a special purpose helmet, to be worn only for short perpiods when he's expecting sniper fire.

Also, it would allow him to have a rebreather inside the helmet and sound like Darth Vader, so there is that. Not sure if the GM would go for it, but it sure has my vote.

Now I want to have my PC negotiate with a flamboyant, psychopathic, darkly charismatic cartel boss wearing badass black templar armour who talks like Darth Vader's Mexican, non-union equivalent. Hefting a GPMG with an EOTech holographic weapon sight, so he doesn't need a cheek weld to get a sight picture, in case the negotiations break down. Wearing two ammo belts over his shoulders and carrying grenades on external web gear.

Shooting the grenades would be one option, but it's probably not that easy to detonate a modern grenade with gunfire. Just ruining the fuze mechanism is probably more likely than an explosion, even if you hit it.
Well, the thing is, in this area the questions about "is that possible" are pretty hard to answer. Adding in the fantastic elements is even more of a challenge. And "what is most plausible?" vs. "how can I handwave to get the effect which I want?" are different questions.

I suspect that a fully enclosed helmet and neckguard as thick as you are talking about in front would be the kind of thing which got worn a couple of times then relegated to the storeroom, because it caused too much neck pain and limited breathing and vision and made it hard to shout orders, but if this guy is worried about preternaturally skilled assassins and too macho to care about comfort than who can say. He is supernaturally strong, and there is some crazy thick armour for jousters or engineers in the front trenches (but like I said, it is not that thick all over). So maybe you could make a grand bascinet, or an armet with wrapper, have the properties you are looking for.

There was a famous paper where they had some interpreters at the Royal Armouries run on a treadmill in 15th century armour with one of those apparati for measuring oxygen consumption on their faces. They did not have the visor down though. Armoured fighting burns a lot of oxygen, but so does diving. So I am more comfortable suggest things that might work than saying "yes or no."
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:55 PM   #225
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

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Also, it would allow him to have a rebreather inside the helmet and sound like Darth Vader, so there is that. Not sure if the GM would go for it, but it sure has my vote.
You could try selling it to him as an oxygen enrichment system. That should give Vargas a few extra FP. See Bio-Tech, p44.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:37 PM   #226
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

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Yeah, back of the envelope it looks like being willing to wear 125 lbs. of advanced steel alloy armour actually translates into quite good protection, even from rifle fire (especially with a ballistic polymer underlayer).
For full coverage, 125 lb is an areal density of 5-6 lb/sf or 25-30 kg/m^2, depending on the size of the person. Checking around, you can find level III armor in that mass range and level IV that's slightly above (I found multiple claims of 25.9 kg/m2 and 32.5 kg/m2 for level III/IV, which are probably all reselling the same thing), but it's not metal (that system is ceramic wrapped in plastic and fiberglass); best figures I can find for steel plates is about 10 lb/sf for level III armor, so anything you can do in full coverage for 125 lb steel can be made swiss cheese by an assault rifle, though variable thickness is obviously an option (the simplest option is to not use the plate for ballistic protection -- just have ordinary weight plate, and put conventional ceramic composites under it).
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:33 PM   #227
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

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For full coverage, 125 lb is an areal density of 5-6 lb/sf or 25-30 kg/m^2, depending on the size of the person. Checking around, you can find level III armor in that mass range and level IV that's slightly above (I found multiple claims of 25.9 kg/m2 and 32.5 kg/m2 for level III/IV, which are probably all reselling the same thing), but it's not metal (that system is ceramic wrapped in plastic and fiberglass); best figures I can find for steel plates is about 10 lb/sf for level III armor, so anything you can do in full coverage for 125 lb steel can be made swiss cheese by an assault rifle, though variable thickness is obviously an option (the simplest option is to not use the plate for ballistic protection -- just have ordinary weight plate, and put conventional ceramic composites under it).
Ceramic composites seem to be too bulky and hard to shape into form-fitting armour be put under anything meant to resemble a historical plate harness. The best steel alloys outperform typical ceramic composite trauma plate as regards DR per inch.

I did initially consider ceramic inserts for the chest area, but given the good performance of advanced alloys, ultimately decided that it wasn't necessary.

I've found 10 lb/sf Level IV flash bainite steel for vehicles, but I'll be assuming somewhat inferior performance for any kind of alloy that is practical for working into complex shapes.

Given that the ballistic polymer underlayer will be around DR 9/4, I expect it to perform very well against spalling. Some of the experiments I found also suggested that even if rifle rounds penetrated steel plates that were not quite thick enough to stop them, they might not always penetrate a layer of ballistic fabric underneath.

By GURPS DR rating, it's seems fairly practical to get armour that will mostly stop carbine fire, even on the limbs, and will stop almost any kind of rifle fire on the chest and skull.

It's true that two layers of armour that individually are not rated to stop a round will not combine the way GURPS rules make them do, but almost Level III armour seems like it ought to stop or at least significantly reduce the lethality of 5.56x45mm from many of the short-barrelled carbines popular today.
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:37 PM   #228
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

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You could try selling it to him as an oxygen enrichment system. That should give Vargas a few extra FP. See Bio-Tech, p44.
Sounds like a good idea.
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:48 PM   #229
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

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I've found 10 lb/sf Level IV flash bainite steel for vehicles
If you're looking at http://www.flashbainite.com/cm/dpl/i..._Challenge.jpg, that's not level IV. Level IV is 7.62M2 AP at 868m/s (2848 fps), that graphic is at 2100 fps. Pretty nice deceptive advertisement, though.
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:51 PM   #230
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Default Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

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Well, the thing is, in this area the questions about "is that possible" are pretty hard to answer. Adding in the fantastic elements is even more of a challenge.
That it is.

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
And "what is most plausible?" vs. "how can I handwave to get the effect which I want?" are different questions.
I reckon I'm the one in the gaming group with the least tolerance for handwaving. The actual GM wants certain things and it's my job to find justifications that are sufficiently plausible to enable me to enjoy the campaign.

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I suspect that a fully enclosed helmet and neckguard as thick as you are talking about in front would be the kind of thing which got worn a couple of times then relegated to the storeroom, because it caused too much neck pain and limited breathing and vision and made it hard to shout orders, but if this guy is worried about preternaturally skilled assassins and too macho to care about comfort than who can say.
I imagine you are right. And Vargas is usually not worried about preternaturally skilled assassins.

But it may be that last session, some actions taken by the PCs may have resulted in him being told about some preternaturally skilled assassins going around looking for him...

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He is supernaturally strong, and there is some crazy thick armour for jousters or engineers in the front trenches (but like I said, it is not that thick all over). So maybe you could make a grand bascinet, or an armet with wrapper, have the properties you are looking for.
The flash bainite alloy I'm looking to use will give around DR 25 for a 6mm thick armour plate.

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There was a famous paper where they had some interpreters at the Royal Armouries run on a treadmill in 15th century armour with one of those apparati for measuring oxygen consumption on their faces. They did not have the visor down though. Armoured fighting burns a lot of oxygen, but so does diving. So I am more comfortable suggest things that might work than saying "yes or no."
Fair enough. I've got no problems believing that a completely enclosed helmet will be significantly worse than just wearing armour when it comes to heat build-up and fatigue.
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