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Old 08-19-2010, 08:52 PM   #21
Phoenix_Dragon
 
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Default Re: Pretty Orcs

Pretty important point, yeah. When we're talking about "attractive" or "ugly," we're talking about those values for a specific cultural group. Many human cultures have similar measures of attractive and ugly, but many have very different and often incompatible ones. You can easily have a human that is attractive to one culture, but ugly by our own (It's practically a trope, by now), much less something as culturally different as an orc or elf.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:14 PM   #22
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Default Re: Pretty Orcs

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon
Pretty important point, yeah. When we're talking about "attractive" or "ugly," we're talking about those values for a specific cultural group. Many human cultures have similar measures of attractive and ugly, but many have very different and often incompatible ones. You can easily have a human that is attractive to one culture, but ugly by our own (It's practically a trope, by now), much less something as culturally different as an orc or elf.
Not to mention differences in attractiveness between different elf and orc cultures.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: Pretty Orcs

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Originally Posted by Nymdok View Post
Im sure in GenChat we could have a long and brisk discussion of 'people who are considered attractive and I dunno why'. :)

Nymdok
I totally agree, I've told people some of the celebrities I find attractive only to have them tell me how much they find the celebrity unattractive. I suppose it's that I'm attracted to girl geeks, Indie/Hipster/Bohemian types and emos. (Though after dating an emo girl I learned to look but do not touch.)
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Old 08-20-2010, 05:13 PM   #24
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Default Re: Pretty Orcs

You silly nutters and your concepts of untraditional beauty... ;D

Take an elf. Make him green or dark grey (depending on your orc). Give him subdued tusks and a full head of hair like Aragorn. Snout his nose only slightly to give him an obvious bit of inhumanity, and make him buffer than a human.

Done.

'Cause it seems to need the disclaimer, this will make a generally attractive sub-orc for a western audience or suitable human culture.
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Last edited by Blood Legend; 08-23-2010 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 08-20-2010, 10:53 PM   #25
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Default Re: Pretty Orcs

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Originally Posted by Blood Legend View Post
Take an elf. Make him green or dark grey (depending on your orc). Give him subdued tusks and a full head of hair like Aragorn. Snout his nose only slightly to give him an obvious bit of inhumanity, and make him buffer than a human.
That orc might have both attractive and unattractive. Attractive to the dominant setting species (Typically humans), but unattractive to other orcs.
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Old 08-20-2010, 11:23 PM   #26
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Default Re: Pretty Orcs

I think part of my problem is that I'm not 100% sure what I consider an Orc to be. There are so many different versions that it's hard to have a concrete idea in my mind about what are definitive Orcish features. Most of the Orcs I'm familiar with (D&D, newer D&D, Tolkien, GURPS) are similar, but have subtle differences. Those subtle differences tend to (for me) have a big impact on what orcs should look and act like as a general thing.


For example, when I first started playing D&D, Orcs were ruthless and bloodthirsty most of the time. They were comparable to the most barbaric humans and had features which were generally unattractive. Over time, these Orcs evolved into a mostly barbaric race which could sometimes defy the norm. They became somewhat more human. In a way, it somewhat parallels how Klingons changed from Star Trek TOS to what they are now. On a side note, D&D orcs also change from being somewhat well organized raiders (Lawful Evil in D&D terms) to being crazed savages (Chaotic Evil.)

They went from being an antagonistic race with violent tendencies to something of a noble savage archtype - still prone to violent outbursts, but given some amount of humanity. I suppose when I consider these Orcs, in some way I do view them somewhat as a green Lower-TL version of Klingons. As such, a pretty orc would be akin to a pretty Klingon. They'd have a few features which would appeal to humans such as a delicate jaw & neck line. However, they'd also have many features which meet the criteria for beauty in strength with sturdy hips, slightly on the chubby side (helps keep a warrior warm at night,) and enough muscle for a rough tussel in the hay without breaking. Individual orcs or different tribes might view certain features with more importance than others.


Then you have the Tolkien Orcs which take all of the things I'm familiar with from the older version of D&D Orcs and ratchet them up; a few notches. These I feel would have a much different version of beauty than the typical human. An attractive male would be an imposing figure on the battlefield; striking fear into his allies as much as he does his foes. He'd look good with armor on and a weapon in his hand. His teeth would be sharp, his facial features hard, and his body fit. I'm unsure about the women because they seem to be mainly viewed as property and not much else by this style of Orc.

I image an overly attractive female orc of this style would be one which can give the males a run for their money on the battlefield; basically the traits that are valued in a male orc, but with different plumbing and 'large tracts of land.' Oddly, for a race not known for their brilliance, I imagine a lot of this attraction being a mental game. Part of the beauty coming from the challenge of the conquest.


When it comes to the GURPS Orcs. I'm not entirely sure what I think yet. I've been playing GURPS for a little while now, but I haven't had much experience with the GURPS portrayal of orcs. I'm a little confused about the GURPS potrayal of the race too because it changes a lot of things I'm accustomed to from the mediums and games I've had more orc experience with. They seem to be somewhat akin to the mentality I'd attribute to less disciplined Hobgoblins... like Bugbears, but without the massive size. I'm in the process of playing through a few fantasy games via GURPS right now, so I'm sure I'll have a more informed opinion on this style of orc once I have more experience with them.


Somewhere in the middle of these three, I am trying to form an idea of orcs that is my own. That's part of why I started this thread. It's helping me to form my mental idea of orcs. As always, it's also interesting to engage in conversation with the community and hear different ideas as well.
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Old 08-21-2010, 07:48 AM   #27
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Default Re: Pretty Orcs

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Originally Posted by Johnny Angel View Post
When it comes to the GURPS Orcs. I'm not entirely sure what I think yet. I've been playing GURPS for a little while now, but I haven't had much experience with the GURPS portrayal of orcs. I'm a little confused about the GURPS potrayal of the race too because it changes a lot of things I'm accustomed to from the mediums and games I've had more orc experience with. They seem to be somewhat akin to the mentality I'd attribute to less disciplined Hobgoblins... like Bugbears, but without the massive size. I'm in the process of playing through a few fantasy games via GURPS right now, so I'm sure I'll have a more informed opinion on this style of orc once I have more experience with them.
If one looks at the whole terminology origin of orc, goblin, gnome, hobgoblin, bugbear, elf, dwarf, kobalos, kobold, bogle, etc, one gets a variety of different sprites and mythological creatures generally all on different points of the same spectrum.

So a goblin can be just a mischievous gnome, a kobold or a small dwarf, which when they get bigger can be called an orc, a hobgoblin or an elf, bigger yet and you have a bugbear, etc.


In other words, the difference between a pretty orc and an ugly elf is simply that the pretty orc is an evil elf and the ugly elf is a good orc, they could be identical twins, it's whether they're good or bad to humans which makes them into orcs or elves respectively.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:56 AM   #28
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Default Re: Pretty Orcs

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Originally Posted by hari View Post
Motivational poster about pretty orcs:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...:0&tx=42&ty=71
And for the original: http://www.redwombatstudio.com/wpg2?g2_itemId=360 (Where we learn that she's Celadon Toadstool, orcish poet, and you can buy a print if you wish.)

(Or http://ursulav.deviantart.com/art/Orc-Nouveau-26040481 (safe for work) and http://ursulav.deviantart.com/art/Or...au-II-26086667 **WARNING, BARE CHESTED ORC LASS!!** ...and then there's her unfinished fic... http://ursulav.deviantart.com/art/Elf-vs-Orc-40549553 )

Meanwhile, her Sings-to-Trees might be a slightly homely elf: http://ursulav.deviantart.com/art/Fe...icken-22636576

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Originally Posted by Irish Wolf View Post
Pretty orc? Benny, of Looking For Group.
Benny's based on World of Warcraft trolls, though... (Count the fingers!) O:D
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:12 AM   #29
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Default Re: Pretty Orcs

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Originally Posted by gjc8 View Post
Not to mention differences in attractiveness between different elf and orc cultures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Legend View Post
You silly nutters and your concepts of untraditional beauty... ;D

Take an elf. Make him green or dark grey (depending on your orc). Give him subdued tusks and a full head of hair like Aragorn. Snout his nose only slightly to give him an obvious bit of inhumanity, and make him buffer than a human.

Done.

'Cause it seems to need the commentary, this will make a generally attractive sub-orc for a western audience or suitable human culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
That orc might have both attractive and unattractive. Attractive to the dominant setting species (Typically humans), but unattractive to other orcs.


I was thinking about this earlier today, and I think perhaps a pretty orc would look something like an elf. It is sometimes said that orcs are to humans what humans are to elves. If this is the case, that would mean -to some extent- there would be a relationship between beauty and how the races appear to each other. Elves tend to be viewed as beautiful by humans. If orcs are to humans what humans are to elves, that would mean that a beautiful orc might look very similar to a human, and an extremely attractive orc might have a few elven features.
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Old 08-23-2010, 03:57 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Johnny Angel View Post
I was thinking about this earlier today, and I think perhaps a pretty orc would look something like an elf. It is sometimes said that orcs are to humans what humans are to elves. If this is the case, that would mean -to some extent- there would be a relationship between beauty and how the races appear to each other. Elves tend to be viewed as beautiful by humans. If orcs are to humans what humans are to elves, that would mean that a beautiful orc might look very similar to a human, and an extremely attractive orc might have a few elven features.
Depends entirely on the setting. In many (Maybe a majority, maybe not?), the elven and orcish ideals of appearance may be very much different. If nothing else, elves tend to be portrayed as tall, lean, and graceful, while an "ideal" orc seems to be tough and strong.
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