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Old 11-25-2017, 10:46 AM   #1
Andreas
 
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Default Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

Someone with Perception 11 can spot things equally well in darkness as someone with Perception 10 and Night Vision, yet Night Vision offsets darkness penalties for combat, but high Perception don't. Why is that?

Should high Perception also help against combat penalties (and if so, would that make Perception's current cost too low?) or should high Perception not help as much as it does for vision challanges in darkness?
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Old 11-25-2017, 11:19 AM   #2
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

Night Vision is better night vision, higher perception is better ability to interpret your senses, being better at interpretating your senses shouldn't make it easier for you hit things you can't see anyway.

It does however help with Situational Awareness, if using those rules.
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Old 11-25-2017, 11:45 AM   #3
Andreas
 
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Default Re: Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Night Vision is better night vision, higher perception is better ability to interpret your senses, being better at interpretating your senses shouldn't make it easier for you hit things you can't see anyway.

It does however help with Situational Awareness, if using those rules.
You can often still see them in less than total darkness, just not as well.

Even for situations where that is not the case, the question remains if you consider Acute Vision instead of Perception.
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Old 11-25-2017, 12:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
You can often still see them in less than total darkness, just not as well.

Even for situations where that is not the case, the question remains if you consider Acute Vision instead of Perception.
I wouldn't allow that, myself. I tend to consider all the Acute senses to be specialized forms of Perception, as contrasted to the physical differences for Telescopic Vision, Night Vision, and so on. Perception as such originated as Alertness, an advantage that was a pooled form of the various Acute senses, back in the days of 3/e.
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Old 11-25-2017, 01:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Someone with Perception 11 can spot things equally well in darkness as someone with Perception 10 and Night Vision, yet Night Vision offsets darkness penalties for combat, but high Perception don't. Why is that?

Should high Perception also help against combat penalties (and if so, would that make Perception's current cost too low?) or should high Perception not help as much as it does for vision challanges in darkness?
Actually, someone with Perception 11 can spot things equally well in darkness as someone with Perception 10 and 1 level of Night Vision.

The reason Night Vision is called out as offsetting darkness penalties for combat, while a higher score in Perception isn't, is because Night Vision only offsets penalties for partial darkness. In a situation where the only penalty to vision is from partial darkness, having a higher Perception score helps reduce that penalty just as Night Vision does. There is no need to call Perception out as specifically doing so. In cases where other penalties to vision also apply, Night Vision only applies to offsetting those penalties directly attributable to partial darkness. For example, if the partial darkness penalty is -3 and you have Night Vision 4, you offset the partial darkness penalty entirely but you can't apply that remaining +1 from your Night Vision to offset -1 of a penalty from the Speed/Range table, while a remaining +1 from higher Perception could. It often presumed that a higher Perception score is used to offset non-partial darkness penalties first and then any leftover bonus goes towards the partial darkness penalty but that's not actually a requirement, you could equally well use it to offset the partial darkness penalty first and non-darkness penalties with any leftover bonus.

That said, Night Vision is supposed to be about your eyes rapidly adjusting to changes in available lighting, so it might be reasonable to require someone without Night Vision to spend time letting his eyes adjust. Eyes adjusting to darkness takes a long time in real life. Ten to twenty minutes was the rule of thumb used in the military and sudden light ruined that adjusted night vision.

Cinematically, you might restrict someone with higher Perception to only being able to offset -1/second partial darkness penalty after a change in lighting while someone with Night Vision gets to negate the penalty to the full extent of their Night Vision in the first second. This may be a needless complication, though.

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 11-25-2017 at 01:34 PM. Reason: capitalization
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Old 11-25-2017, 01:48 PM   #6
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Default Re: Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
…That said, Night Vision is supposed to be about your eyes rapidly adjusting to changes in available lighting, so it might be reasonable to require someone without Night Vision to spend time letting his eyes adjust. Eyes adjusting to darkness takes a long time in real life. Ten to twenty minutes was the rule of thumb used in the military and sudden light ruined that adjusted night vision.…
See Tactical Shooting p.18, "Light Adaptation"
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Old 11-25-2017, 01:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
The reason Night Vision is called out as offsetting darkness penalties for combat, while a higher score in Perception isn't, is because Night Vision only offsets penalties for partial darkness. In a situation where the only penalty to vision is from partial darkness, having a higher Perception score helps reduce that penalty just as Night Vision does.
Incorrect. In situations of partial darkness, keen eyes or enhanced perception will offset the perception penalties for darkness, but have no effect on the combat penalties for darkness (-darkness to hit).

I would probably allow Cosmic (+50%) to have keen vision able to offset vision penalties to combat (this would include obscurement as well as darkness).
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Old 11-25-2017, 01:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

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Originally Posted by Gigermann View Post
See Tactical Shooting p.18, "Light Adaptation"
Kind of hard to, when you don't own the book.
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Old 11-25-2017, 06:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

Night Vision is meant to be the innate equivalent of night-vision goggles, an accessory designed expressly for combat. It works in real time.

High Perception is more like signal analysis. Strictly speaking, a Perception roll takes a Concentrate maneuver (the "processing time"), and you'd have to roll every turn. A one-second lag isn't optimal when interacting with an opponent in real time.

Both are useful counters against darkness when time isn't of the essence. If a character takes a turn to make a Vision roll, Per 11 is as good as Per 10 and NV 1 if there's even -1 in darkness penalties. But Night Vision works when time is of the essence, which is why it also offsets combat penalties for darkness.
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Old 11-25-2017, 07:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Night Vision offsets darkness penalties in combat but extra Perception don't

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Night Vision is meant to be the innate equivalent of night-vision goggles, an accessory designed expressly for combat. It works in real time.

High Perception is more like signal analysis. Strictly speaking, a Perception roll takes a Concentrate maneuver (the "processing time"), and you'd have to roll every turn. A one-second lag isn't optimal when interacting with an opponent in real time.

Both are useful counters against darkness when time isn't of the essence. If a character takes a turn to make a Vision roll, Per 11 is as good as Per 10 and NV 1 if there's even -1 in darkness penalties. But Night Vision works when time is of the essence, which is why it also offsets combat penalties for darkness.
Which of those is the case for Acute Vision? Unlike Perception, that is a Physical Advantage.

Also does this mean that you should roll against 10-penalties/+bonuses (regardless of what Perception you have) when you make a sense roll to see if you noticed anything without taking a Concentrate maneuver?
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