Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-14-2018, 02:13 AM   #11
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Remember also, that each time you are hit you suffer shock penalties (up to -4 to dx skills). So if you have lost 23 hp, you must have been hit a bunch of times and have been suffering shock penalties for many of your turns.
Yep, which unless the hit person has enough skill to absorb that penalty and still hit back easily it opens up options for their opponent on their next turn who can worry that bit less about getting hit in response especially if they can string a few of these turns together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Or, if you where hit a few times by major wounds you would also have been forced to make knockdown and srunning rolls.
True, although a good HT score pays dividends here (but not so much if it's a major wound to the vitals, face or skull)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-14-2018 at 04:18 AM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 06:51 AM   #12
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

High HT is really not much of a problem without high HP and, even then, HP is a finite resource. It really does not matter if a character possesses HT 16 and HP 20, other than that they might actually require 120 points of damage to avoid dying (even with HT 16, they will go unconscious in under a minute after they reach -HP).

What really matters is how effective they are in incapacitating their enemy before their enemies. In a TL5+ campaign, skill and speed matter more than HT and HP because a large caliber bullet can deal between an average of 21 (4d pi+) to 63 (6d2 pi+) points of damage to a target without armor (and you can easily take 3 hits a turn from a gun with an RoF above 3). It is much better to have a dodge of 13 and avoid 83% of attacks than to have HP 20 and just accept five attacks before dying.
AlexanderHowl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 07:14 AM   #13
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
High HT is really not much of a problem without high HP and, even then, HP is a finite resource. It really does not matter if a character possesses HT 16 and HP 20, other than that they might actually require 120 points of damage to avoid dying (even with HT 16, they will go unconscious in under a minute after they reach -HP).

What really matters is how effective they are in incapacitating their enemy before their enemies. In a TL5+ campaign, skill and speed matter more than HT and HP because a large caliber bullet can deal between an average of 21 (4d pi+) to 63 (6d2 pi+) points of damage to a target without armor (and you can easily take 3 hits a turn from a gun with an RoF above 3). It is much better to have a dodge of 13 and avoid 83% of attacks than to have HP 20 and just accept five attacks before dying.
I agree with main point that at some TLs* it better not to get hit rather than rely on soaking the damage, but quick question do you not use the overpenetration rules?

However for me high HT is most definitely a huge advantage because it keeps you on your feet. You drop unconscious and potentially you're a coup de grace at your opponent's whim away from dead with not much input into the outcome.

Additionally IME in hand to hand being knocked down is pretty much a fight ender under most circumstances, high HT can prevent that



*of course some TL's provide their own answer in having personal armor that keep up with hand held weapons.

IME setting where you have high damage firearms and no armour are particularly lethal e.g wild west (which is even worse as high skill is in keeping with the genre at times as well) and large chunks of the C20th (7d rifles vs. no body armor worth mentioning = "yikes I'm rolling to stop bleeding at what penalty!"),

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-14-2018 at 01:05 PM.
Tomsdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 07:42 AM   #14
JMason
 
JMason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Cockeysville, MD
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbrewster1 View Post
But do either of those directly affect your ability to swing a sword, shoot a gun, kick an opponent? I ran a combat, one opponent was at -12 hit points out of 11, so a total of 23 damage, but still able to fight normally, with an HT of 12 he made his consciousness roll every time. It just seems like there should be a more significant penalty for going into negative hit points.
Also note that at -12 HP, the roll to stay conscious is 11 (-1 per full multiple of HP below zero). At -22 that becomes 10, a 50% chance every turn to pass out (if taking any maneuver other than "Do Nothing").
__________________
---
My Blog: Dice and Discourse - My adventures in GURPS and thoughts on table top RPGs.
JMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 08:10 AM   #15
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

The note about putting your opponent on a timer is a good one. Unless you have ranged weapons, I can move away from you and you won't be able to close the distance. You'll eventually loose consciousness.

If ranged weapons ARE on the table, dodge becomes much more important and your dodge is now in the nether regions.
__________________
Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog
ericthered is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 08:16 AM   #16
jsbrewster1
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

Hi everyone,

Thanks so much for all of the information. I have a lot more insight now as to how movement can affect combat. In my mock combat, I basically had 2 fighters toe to toe slugging it out, so to speak. But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.

I will definitely look at the effects in the Martial Arts books, and I'm already considering some house rules around repeated shock. In my combat, the injured party was kicked for at least 3 points of damage every turn for 5 rounds, but missed in the 6th round, so no penalty to his attack after that. I'd think he'd be reeling for more than 1 second after being kicked 5 times in a row.
jsbrewster1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 08:31 AM   #17
Kelly Pedersen
 
Kelly Pedersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbrewster1 View Post
But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.
Only if the uninjured character chooses to come back into range, though, is the thing. If I was in a one-on-one duel, and had dropped my enemy to negative HP, I'd simply keep opening the range with them. If they keep coming after me, they'll be the one having to make Move and Attacks, with the -4 penalty, and eventually they'll fail an HT roll. And if they just stand there panting, I have time to do various things to set up my own attacks. I can Evaluate, for example, which under normal circumstances means I can get up to +3 on my next attack. That would let me eliminate the penalty for a targeted attack to the vitals or a limb, for example, which could end the fight right there. Or I could ready a ranged weapon, and just start plinking the wounded character. Or I could wait for my friends to arrive, and completely finish them off with numbers. Lots of options. The key thing to remember is that the character with negative HP is in trouble. They're going to be standing for a few more seconds, at best. If they try anything besides moving at a slow walking pace (1 yard per second), including anything that requires serious mental effort (a Concentrate maneuver is not a Do Nothing maneuver!), they'll pass out in fairly short order. If my opponent is at negative HP and I'm not, and the opponent doesn't have allies to fight instead of them, they're basically defeated, it's just a matter of time.
Kelly Pedersen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 08:51 AM   #18
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

Another critically important thing to remember is that combat doesn't occur in an infinite flat plain with no walls or obstacles. I mean, unless you really want it to, but generally roleplaying games (like real life) have more interesting settings.

Having more mobility means even more when you have terrain features to work with, as you can often maneuver your opponent into an area beneficial for you.

Many people at 1/3 HP or less are going to be picking options like Retreat to make up for substantially reduced defenses - when you have better mobility, you can push them back where you want them to be and always have the option to withdraw, or you can kite them around obstacles, or attack and then step back, leaving them two hexes away after their retreat.

Superior mobility means you can circle around behind them and attack from behind, stacking further defense penalties or even avoiding them entirely (see Runaround Attack for details). Even just circling to their side to make use of the -2 to defense for a flank attack is useful - with dodge halved any additional penalty becomes a major impact.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Grand Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 08:53 AM   #19
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

Yes, it just becomes a matter of having patience. It actually works in the favor of PCs when facing opponents without Bloodlust, as they will ignore PCs who are severely injured unless they are obviously up to no good (charging the NPC, drawing a throwing weapon, positioning for a flanking attack, etc). In the case of a severely injured character using a Move and Attack, the receiving opponent only has to use a Stop Hit to make that into a bad idea (since Initiative is determined by Basic Speed, a severely injured character is likely going after an uninjured character).
AlexanderHowl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2018, 09:00 AM   #20
JMason
 
JMason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Cockeysville, MD
Default Re: Negative Hit Point effects

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsbrewster1 View Post
But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.
That's what the Wait maneuver is for. If you can gain enough space between the enemy and yourself, then wait till they approach, attack (before they get a chance) and step back, then you are going to be keeping them away and injuring them.

Another good option is Evaluate which is allowed for any target that you can reach with a Move and Attack. If they make it into step space after a turn then all the better.

The last thing that I would purpose is that when you GM enemies... don't make them suicidal! Most people that are fighting to stay conscious are going to loose their will to fight. They will offer surrender, try to flee combat, or just collapse and feign death. Fights don't have to go on to the bitter end.
__________________
---
My Blog: Dice and Discourse - My adventures in GURPS and thoughts on table top RPGs.
JMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.