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Old 02-25-2021, 01:57 PM   #11
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

It seems to me that a Force Dome would be more appropriate to build using Innate Attack with the Wall Enhancement, although I'd need to check my books to see how the pricing comparison works out. Affects Others + Area Effect + Ranged should simply buff anyone in the affected area with the relevant effect. I think Affects Others has a variable price depending on how many people it can affect at once, so I guess the idea of "pay to affect only one person, but it only protects against attacks from outside the area of effect, and you can't decide who you want it to affect" seems at least somewhat fair, but it feels a bit... off. Also, DR doesn't prevent people from making contact with you, getting past you, etc, so it seems weird if it blocks people from passing through it, but at the same time that's absolutely what I'd expect to happen with a Force Dome.
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Old 02-25-2021, 02:31 PM   #12
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

Ranged on DR is good for making an attack go off over there and not where you are. This is important for follow-ups or carrier attacks.

And, since it has Area Effect, I would say that, if you tried to bring a second one up, the first would terminate, unless it also had Persistent.
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Old 02-26-2021, 12:54 AM   #13
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Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
It seems to me that a Force Dome would be more appropriate to build using Innate Attack with the Wall Enhancement, although I'd need to check my books to see how the pricing comparison works out. Affects Others + Area Effect + Ranged should simply buff anyone in the affected area with the relevant effect. I think Affects Others has a variable price depending on how many people it can affect at once, so I guess the idea of "pay to affect only one person, but it only protects against attacks from outside the area of effect, and you can't decide who you want it to affect" seems at least somewhat fair, but it feels a bit... off. Also, DR doesn't prevent people from making contact with you, getting past you, etc, so it seems weird if it blocks people from passing through it, but at the same time that's absolutely what I'd expect to happen with a Force Dome.
If you build a Force Dome with Innate Attack + Wall, I think you now have something that blocks your attacks as well, which DR (even with Force Field) doesn't usually do, so it would depend on what you're trying to achieve.
A Wall probably ends up static as well, while I expect DR with Force Field and Area Effect, to move with the character, not sure about it if you add ranged.

DR with Force Filed afaik does prevent people from making contact with you, so it makes sense that an AoE would prevent people from entering.

And btw, I can see why a single guy with an 8 meter force bubble would not be the best tactical option in a lot of situations, but:
1- Once you've gone down the force bubble way, adding some additional modifiers so you can dial down the range or turn off the AoE completly are a possibility.
2- Not to afraid of that single guy, but take a squadron of soldiers that form 3 lines deep with overlapping shields, you could easily face 3x or more DR, and good luck closing in melee range without a tank.
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Old 02-26-2021, 02:46 AM   #14
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Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
Ranged on DR is good for making an attack go off over there and not where you are. This is important for follow-ups or carrier attacks.

And, since it has Area Effect, I would say that, if you tried to bring a second one up, the first would terminate, unless it also had Persistent.
Most follow-ups are useless even against a higher level of vanilla DR unless limited with Tough Skin. This is even more true for DR with the basic (non-AoE) forcefield enchantment.

Your ranged DR ends up way more expensive and as a result is significantly less likely to have a high-enough level to actually block the attack in the first place.
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Old 02-26-2021, 03:35 AM   #15
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Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

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Most follow-ups are useless even against a higher level of vanilla DR unless limited with Tough Skin. This is even more true for DR with the basic (non-AoE) forcefield enchantment.

Your ranged DR ends up way more expensive and as a result is significantly less likely to have a high-enough level to actually block the attack in the first place.
A follow up might also be an explosion where having it blow up further away from you is better than trying to stop it with DR.

And of course the ability to protect someone else is more expensive than just being able to protect yourself.
Sure, a DR 40 guy could step in front of a civilian and protect him from a bullet, but what if the civilian is 50y away ? The brick can watch him die, while the guy that projects force fields can at least try to save him.
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Old 02-26-2021, 05:42 AM   #16
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Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

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A follow up might also be an explosion where having it blow up further away from you is better than trying to stop it with DR.

And of course the ability to protect someone else is more expensive than just being able to protect yourself.
Sure, a DR 40 guy could step in front of a civilian and protect him from a bullet, but what if the civilian is 50y away ? The brick can watch him die, while the guy that projects force fields can at least try to save him.
In theory, but in practice his force-bubble only has ~10 DR due to the cost of the enhancements to make said bubble. That won't save anyone from more than a pistol and in most situations where bricks typically have 40 DR won't stop much of anything really. Bubble-man can't even protect himself.

Hence why I think it ends up too expensive for what you get.
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Old 02-26-2021, 07:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
If you build a Force Dome with Innate Attack + Wall, I think you now have something that blocks your attacks as well, which DR (even with Force Field) doesn't usually do, so it would depend on what you're trying to achieve.

A Wall probably ends up static as well, while I expect DR with Force Field and Area Effect, to move with the character, not sure about it if you add ranged.
Does the Force Dome in question allow one-way travel (by characters attacks, etc), and does it move with the character? Neither seems appropriate. For the latter, you'd need Persistent (so you can cast it and move on, rather than having to maintain it each second) and Mobile (and Emanation if it simply stays around the caster, probably something like Homing if it stays around some designated target)... those should be just as legal for Innate Attack (Wall) as for the DR build. For the former, I think you'd need to introduce a new Enhancement, One Way, that allows passing through it (with characters, attacks, etc) in one direction but not the other. This again should be available for either build (unless it is indeed inherent in the DR build, but that would seem odd, given how Force Dome effects tend to work in most media).

As for the cost of One Way, I'd say +20% if you are restricted to a single shape for your Wall (that is, you have Wall +30%), +40% if you can modify it (that is, you have Wall +60%); note this could simply be rewritten as a single Enhancement, One Way Wall, at either +50% or +100%. The reason I suggest a higher price if the wall isn't restricted to a single shape is because One Way has markedly more utility in that case. For a Force Dome effect, with One Way Wall, when designing it you need to decide if it's meant for protection (you can leave, but can't get in) or imprisonment (you can get in, but can't leave), and you can generally only use it for one or the other. With One Way Wall +100%, however, you can use the same power to create a protective barrier and a prison, simply changing what you want it to be each time you use the power.

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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
DR with Force Filed afaik does prevent people from making contact with you, so it makes sense that an AoE would prevent people from entering.
They can still grapple and shove you just fine, but that's not an option with a Force Dome.
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Old 02-26-2021, 08:17 AM   #18
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Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

I'm not so sure about adding modifiers to Wall, which is already a heavily modified Innate Attack.

It's also true that DR with Affects Others, Force Field and Area Effect already has a few modifiers that alter it significantly, and adding Ranged to it further complicates things.

I'll also stop tying to convince people of the value of support.

Anyway, to answer you @Varyon, the effect of DR(AO,FF,AE) seem to be centered on the character generating the field, and as such mobile with him, much like normal "skin tight" DR with FF. It's also stated that the protection is one way only. So people from inside can attack the outside at no penalty, there is something funny going on with the way movement is affected, since it says "Foes" that want to cross the field must force their way in...
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Old 02-26-2021, 09:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

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I'm not so sure about adding modifiers to Wall, which is already a heavily modified Innate Attack.
Innate Attack (Wall) starts out much closer to a force bubble/wall/whatever than DR, honestly, which is why I think it should be the base.

As for pricing, I looked at that a bit last night, so going largely off memory, a basic personal Force Dome would be Innate Attack 2d cr (Area Effect +50%; Persistent +40%; Wall, Rigid +30%; Emanation -20%) [20]. This gives a stationary, rigid, oblong (a bit tall) hemisphere around the character only, providing Cover DR 7 (DR 6 + 1 HP; note it collapses if penetrated); personally, I'd allow for Wall without Persistent, but the character is stuck making Ready/Concentrate Maneuvers every round while it lasts. If you want to replicate the "no collision damage" aspect of Force Dome, take No Wounding -50%, reducing the above cost to [15]. Scale DR up or down as needed by increasing or decreasing damage (maintaining 1d of DR per 1d of damage). To have a larger hemisphere, a further +100% ([+10] for the DR 7 version) worth of Area Effect doubles radius to 2 yards, +200% to 4 yards, +300% to 8 yards, and so forth, doubling every +100%. Note it's always oblong, so typically SM+0 characters can stand under it, even at the edges. I'll leave it to those with Sorcery: Protection and Warning Spells to compare this pricing to the weird DR-based build there.

Note the above is roughly [3] per point of DR, and every +10% worth of additional (or removed) modifiers is [+0.15] per point of DR. An 8-yard radius (+300%), one way (+20%) dome that moves with the character (Mobile +40%) lasts 10 seconds and grants DR 35 would cost [280] normally, or [294] using the above simplification. That's enough to get personal DR 56 or ~59, respectively, so while bubble-guy isn't as resilient as a tank with comparable point investment, he's not completely out of their league. Do note while this would let you have a moving personal bubble for only ~[3.9] per DR (by adding on Mobile and changing to One Way Wall), it only lasts for up to 10 seconds at a time before another Maneuver needs to be burned to renew it, and collapses if penetrated (requiring an early renewal). That doesn't sound outlandish for what works out to be a ~-42% Limitation (comparing this to DR (Forcefield +20%)).
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Last edited by Varyon; 02-26-2021 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 02-26-2021, 05:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Q about applying Ranged +40% to DR

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Originally Posted by Mark Skarr View Post
since it has Area Effect, I would say that, if you tried to bring a second one up, the first would terminate, unless it also had Persistent.
Never thought about Persistent for getting around the "only one instance of Ranged" thing, seems to make sense.

Or maybe Independent is needed too for that?
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