Neutral gods in DF

b-dog · 09-08-2015, 01:13 PM

I am curious about how to run neutral gods in DF. I would imagine that these gods would be gods of things or concepts like God of the sea, god of music, god of wine, god of the hunt etc. They would likely not care about the morality of the person worshipping them, they would just accept all who revere them. For example, a god of the sea like Poseidon might give blessing to both good and evil sailors who make a prayer or offering at his shrine before an ocean voyage. Poseidon would not be part of the good vs evil war that is being waged, he only seeks to protect his sphere of influence which is the sea. Good sea creatures and evil might pray to him for aid and could even become his clerics? Or would you say that in order to be a cleric of a neutral god you must be neutral too?

b-dog · 09-08-2015, 01:31 PM

An example with the concept of a sea god is that maybe there are mermaids and mermen who are good and kindly and then there trow and fishmen who are evil and cruel. Both live in the ocean and if there are too many mermaids and mermen maybe that will degrade the coral reefs or cause pollution so maybe the sea god will aid the trow and fishmen so they can capture and eat the excess mermaids and mermen. Or if there are too many trow and fishmen maybe he helps the mermaids and mermen to defeat them. This is to keep the balance in the ocean to keep it healthy. So maybe the sea god is revered by both mermaids and mermen and also trow and fishmen? Is this what a,neutral god does?

sonic232 · 09-08-2015, 01:34 PM

A truly NEUTRAL god in DF, IMHO, would simply bias towards avoiding inherently good or inherently evil spells on their spell list, given that GURPS is an system that uses mental disadvantages to discuss the morality of characters rather than a two-axis alignment grid. They'd more involve directly manipulating their area's focus (Be careful, some focuses might be better for Druids than Clerics), but a god of Art might focus on Sound, Illusion, Light, and Making and Breaking (with a focus on the Making rather than the Breaking) while a God of Wine would focus on some Body Control, Mind Control and Food spells that simulate being drunk and creating alcohol. No direct healing or harming spells.

David Johnston2 · 09-08-2015, 01:35 PM

Not only would it not be necessary to be neutral to worship a neutral god, it wouldn't be necessary to be good to worship a good god or evil to worship an evil god.

b-dog · 09-08-2015, 02:08 PM

So would neutral really be better termed amoral? A neutral god does not care how something happens only that it happens. Sort of by means necessary. Say a god of the sea is having problems with fire creatures, maybe he summons all forms of sea creatures, evil and good to help protect the sea. Or maybe an evil temple is harming the sea. In this case the sea god calls both good and evil creatures to help defend the sea. Maybe some evil sea creatures may side with the evil temple while others care more for preserving their sea. There could be a civil war of sorts with the evil sea creatures. The same could happen with a good temple destroying the sea but the good sea creatures may have a civil war. What do you think?

sonic232 · 09-08-2015, 02:21 PM

If the creatures legitimately followed their god, then it may be a thing where while they were in the temple of the neutral god, all differences must be set aside as a part of their creed (similar to Druids in WoW, at least when I played before Wrath of the Lich King: In-Fighting between Tauren and Night Elf Druids was strictly forbidden and enforced by the guards while they were in their shared sanctum). Once the defense of the temple was over and they were away from any truly 'sacred' locations, then the in-fighting could commence once again. However, any Clerics of that God should treat both Good and Evil creatures that fall within its focus the same way.... BUT... I'd call any follower of a Neutral god which focuses on NATURE a Druid. That kind of thing is kinda in their wheelhouse.

b-dog · 09-08-2015, 02:46 PM

I think neutral sort of gives the impression that the person does not care. It could mean maintaining a balance but that is hard to roleplay. A person who is good really cares about good while a person who is evil really cares about evil, a person who is neutral really cares about neutrality? What does that mean? He just wants a balance between good and evil? Or he does not want to be involved in the war between good and evil? Either way neutrality is hard to play. I just think that a god who is neutral just cares about what is there sphere of influence regardless of the morality. Just as a druid cares about nature and does not care about moral forces unless they destroy nature.

sonic232 · 09-08-2015, 02:49 PM

That's just it, a Neutral god could go either way: Balance or 'Food Chain'. It all depends on if an all out civil war would endanger their sphere of influence.

Ashtagon · 09-08-2015, 03:13 PM

I'm not sure there's really such a thing as "neutral". Every god has an interest, even the "neutral" ones. "Neutral" is simply a label that mortals assign to gods whose interests aren't notably beneficial or baneful to humans. That's fine when defining the in-character relationships between man and god, but it short-changes the gods in defining what their motivations are.

That "neutral" god of the sea? He loves two things: storms, and seeing that the ocean gets its "tithe". Whether that tithe be in the form of shipwrecks, piracy, wrecker-cultists, or the merchants guild intentionally-sinking vessels, he doesn't much care. He just wants his tithe.

The neutral god of wine? He just wants as many people drunk for as long as possible.

The god of nature? He wants the forests preserved. Leave them alone and he won't care. Clear the forests and see divine wrath in action.

There's no such thing as a "neutral" god. At most, there are gods whose purposes are tangential to the interests of humanity.

Anthony · 09-08-2015, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

I'm not sure there's really such a thing as "neutral".

Remember, DF. Dungeon Fantasy has three alignments:

Targets (aka 'evil')
Allies (aka 'good')
Neither allies nor targets (aka 'neutral')

There's plenty of rooms for gods you have no particular reason to either aid or oppose, though they tend towards background color.

09-08-2015, 01:13 PM	#1
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	Neutral gods in DF I am curious about how to run neutral gods in DF. I would imagine that these gods would be gods of things or concepts like God of the sea, god of music, god of wine, god of the hunt etc. They would likely not care about the morality of the person worshipping them, they would just accept all who revere them. For example, a god of the sea like Poseidon might give blessing to both good and evil sailors who make a prayer or offering at his shrine before an ocean voyage. Poseidon would not be part of the good vs evil war that is being waged, he only seeks to protect his sphere of influence which is the sea. Good sea creatures and evil might pray to him for aid and could even become his clerics? Or would you say that in order to be a cleric of a neutral god you must be neutral too?

09-08-2015, 01:31 PM	#2
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	Re: Neutral gods in DF An example with the concept of a sea god is that maybe there are mermaids and mermen who are good and kindly and then there trow and fishmen who are evil and cruel. Both live in the ocean and if there are too many mermaids and mermen maybe that will degrade the coral reefs or cause pollution so maybe the sea god will aid the trow and fishmen so they can capture and eat the excess mermaids and mermen. Or if there are too many trow and fishmen maybe he helps the mermaids and mermen to defeat them. This is to keep the balance in the ocean to keep it healthy. So maybe the sea god is revered by both mermaids and mermen and also trow and fishmen? Is this what a,neutral god does?

09-08-2015, 01:34 PM	#3
sonic232 Join Date: Jun 2006	Re: Neutral gods in DF A truly NEUTRAL god in DF, IMHO, would simply bias towards avoiding inherently good or inherently evil spells on their spell list, given that GURPS is an system that uses mental disadvantages to discuss the morality of characters rather than a two-axis alignment grid. They'd more involve directly manipulating their area's focus (Be careful, some focuses might be better for Druids than Clerics), but a god of Art might focus on Sound, Illusion, Light, and Making and Breaking (with a focus on the Making rather than the Breaking) while a God of Wine would focus on some Body Control, Mind Control and Food spells that simulate being drunk and creating alcohol. No direct healing or harming spells.

09-08-2015, 01:35 PM	#4
David Johnston2 Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: Neutral gods in DF Not only would it not be necessary to be neutral to worship a neutral god, it wouldn't be necessary to be good to worship a good god or evil to worship an evil god.

09-08-2015, 02:08 PM	#5
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	Re: Neutral gods in DF So would neutral really be better termed amoral? A neutral god does not care how something happens only that it happens. Sort of by means necessary. Say a god of the sea is having problems with fire creatures, maybe he summons all forms of sea creatures, evil and good to help protect the sea. Or maybe an evil temple is harming the sea. In this case the sea god calls both good and evil creatures to help defend the sea. Maybe some evil sea creatures may side with the evil temple while others care more for preserving their sea. There could be a civil war of sorts with the evil sea creatures. The same could happen with a good temple destroying the sea but the good sea creatures may have a civil war. What do you think?

09-08-2015, 02:21 PM	#6
sonic232 Join Date: Jun 2006	Re: Neutral gods in DF If the creatures legitimately followed their god, then it may be a thing where while they were in the temple of the neutral god, all differences must be set aside as a part of their creed (similar to Druids in WoW, at least when I played before Wrath of the Lich King: In-Fighting between Tauren and Night Elf Druids was strictly forbidden and enforced by the guards while they were in their shared sanctum). Once the defense of the temple was over and they were away from any truly 'sacred' locations, then the in-fighting could commence once again. However, any Clerics of that God should treat both Good and Evil creatures that fall within its focus the same way.... BUT... I'd call any follower of a Neutral god which focuses on NATURE a Druid. That kind of thing is kinda in their wheelhouse.

09-08-2015, 02:46 PM	#7
b-dog Join Date: Nov 2006	Re: Neutral gods in DF I think neutral sort of gives the impression that the person does not care. It could mean maintaining a balance but that is hard to roleplay. A person who is good really cares about good while a person who is evil really cares about evil, a person who is neutral really cares about neutrality? What does that mean? He just wants a balance between good and evil? Or he does not want to be involved in the war between good and evil? Either way neutrality is hard to play. I just think that a god who is neutral just cares about what is there sphere of influence regardless of the morality. Just as a druid cares about nature and does not care about moral forces unless they destroy nature.

09-08-2015, 02:49 PM	#8
sonic232 Join Date: Jun 2006	Re: Neutral gods in DF That's just it, a Neutral god could go either way: Balance or 'Food Chain'. It all depends on if an all out civil war would endanger their sphere of influence.

09-08-2015, 03:13 PM	#9
Ashtagon Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: UK	Re: Neutral gods in DF I'm not sure there's really such a thing as "neutral". Every god has an interest, even the "neutral" ones. "Neutral" is simply a label that mortals assign to gods whose interests aren't notably beneficial or baneful to humans. That's fine when defining the in-character relationships between man and god, but it short-changes the gods in defining what their motivations are. That "neutral" god of the sea? He loves two things: storms, and seeing that the ocean gets its "tithe". Whether that tithe be in the form of shipwrecks, piracy, wrecker-cultists, or the merchants guild intentionally-sinking vessels, he doesn't much care. He just wants his tithe. The neutral god of wine? He just wants as many people drunk for as long as possible. The god of nature? He wants the forests preserved. Leave them alone and he won't care. Clear the forests and see divine wrath in action. There's no such thing as a "neutral" god. At most, there are gods whose purposes are tangential to the interests of humanity.