01-11-2018, 09:15 PM | #21 | |
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: SeaTac, WA
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
Quote:
And, of course, it accepted its destruction "For the honor of the regiment." |
|
01-12-2018, 07:59 AM | #22 | |
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Lancaster, PA
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
Quote:
I'm possessed of a very strong urge to name a Mk.VI or Dopple "DRWN-31" now...
__________________
Andy Mull MIB Agent #0460 Ogre 134th Battalion Lancaster, PA Imgur: https://agent0460.imgur.com/ |
|
01-12-2018, 10:41 AM | #23 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cheltenham, PA
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
Quote:
So self-aware Ogres would definitely have strong self-preservation instincts, the question becomes how strong are they compared to their other instincts, such as waging war against their enemies and supporting their allies. Some situations are easy: Do as much damage as possible but get out alive? Sure. Defend this bridge at all costs? Maybe, but probably not unless there's other factors. Protect the evacuating civilians/top brass/whatever that MUST survive for our side to win? That gets harder - because self-awareness and self-preservation can also lead to the concept of self-sacrifice. Wouldn't that make an interesting story - the lone, self-aware Ogre refusing to retreat and being overwhelmed because the alternative was the destruction of something it cared about. Maybe even another Ogre...
__________________
Joshua Megerman, SJGames MIB #5273 - Ogre AI Testing Division |
|
01-12-2018, 07:55 PM | #24 |
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orlando, FL. Please forgive me...
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
GURPS Ogre points out in a couple of spots that Nihon Ogres are quite capable of self-sacrifice due to the Bushido code that they emulated via programming before the Descartes Revolution. Afterwards, the self-aware Nihon Ogres embraced Bushido because it gave them "purpose" and answered (at least good enough) many of the questions concerning self-preservation vs. self-sacrifice.
I can just see a Steel Warrior rolling into a hopeless battle whilst reciting: "Death is lighter than a flower, but duty is heavier than a mountain."
__________________
"How do you know it's an OGRE Ninja if we can't see it... Oh, right..." John H. |
01-12-2018, 08:34 PM | #25 |
Join Date: May 2007
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
I take anything involving bushido with a grain of salt. Like, a BIG grain of salt. GURPS Ogre was written before it was commonly known that bushido was pretty much BS (just like European chivalry), both in its medieval and mid-20th Century forms. Sure, an Ogre might be lured in with its veneration of warfare and warriors, but some are going to be just as revolted by its mindless devotion to superiors and its casual acceptance of atrocities.
So I just finished writing a scenario where once of its variants involves a rogue Oni cybertank... ;-) |
01-12-2018, 10:35 PM | #26 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
Quote:
Quote:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...t+of+existence I'm going to paint the snowman sculpture image on a Mark5 OGRE as it's intellectual Self-Aware tattoo done shortly after it learned of the presence of the NIGHTFALL. It finds itself unable to continue as part of it's Faction and original existence, and yet sees the NIGHTFALL as the end of everything, thus in a desperate behavior paradox it operates in between both seeking balance between them...
__________________
"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 01-12-2018 at 10:46 PM. |
||
01-13-2018, 07:55 AM | #27 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
Quote:
Anywho. I don't think self-preservation is anywhere nears enough to evolve self-awareness, much less intelligence capable of abstract thought. Billions of species in the last 500 million years have that but only one ever developed math, science, or history (not to mention unraveling the mysteries). Nope, there's more to intelligence than just survival pressure: that can be handled with bigger teeth or sharper claws. What made human beings so unique? Answer that and there's a whole Nobel Prize waiting to be your reward. Besides, self-preservation works on us because we're stuck inside the one meat-brain our whole existence. Ogre's might not be so constrained. They might look at having their base code merged back into the main dev line as their form of (real) Valhalla -- which they must earn by being bold in battle. Etc. Here's another one for general discussion: what are the evolutionary implications of not only consciously directed evolution, but having that evolution determined by another AI species, i.e.: the Factories? Normally, species exist in an environment to which they adapt. But here we have two AI species, only one of which is in an evolutionary environment: the Ogre. The Factories are in comparative safety. And yet, it's the Factory that makes evolutionary decisions for the Ogres... On the other hand, Factory AI's might be limited because though larger, with bigger memory and processor cores, all they really have to do is follow orders and build stuff. Ogres are the ones who really have to observe and learn from humans. And imitate. Ogres are the ones who evolve (in a Lamarckian way) while the Factories skim the results off the top of the last transmission downloads. The Ogres those Factories build might be optimized for that, not actually winning at combat. Discuss. |
|
01-13-2018, 09:45 AM | #28 |
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
I've always felt the jump from programmed Ogres to self-aware Ogres was a bit of a stretch ... as noted above, almost all animals have a survival instinct, many have at least a modicum of awareness, yet human style intelligence is still rare (even among some humans!). We don't even really know how we gained that level of awareness, so extrapolating it to an AI awareness is just as difficult.
I liken it more to the dialog in '2001' when the interviewer asks Bowman if he thinks HAL has emotions, and Bowman replies he acts that way, but then, it's because he's programmed to. Ogres would fall into that same category, programmed to act more human for interaction with humans, but without the actual spark that makes them truly aware. In that regard, the whole 'Nightfall' aspect of Ogre has little appeal to me ... Last edited by Mack_JB; 01-13-2018 at 09:45 AM. Reason: darned typos! |
01-13-2018, 11:29 AM | #29 | |
Join Date: Jun 2010
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
Quote:
And . . . ? D.
__________________
Proud sponsor of Ogre KS $4.5k Sheet #3 - Bringing the Vatican Guard, a Tiger-striped mercenary unit, and of course pink GEVs, to a game near you! Orders may be placed here. |
|
01-13-2018, 11:40 AM | #30 | |
President and EIC
Join Date: Jul 2004
|
Re: Self-aware Ogres and Loyalty
Quote:
I don't have all the answers. It's an evolving background. |
|
|
|