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Old 04-13-2006, 05:41 PM   #81
Luther
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert
Only if the other guy also AoAs - which he will if it gives a +4.
Don't think so. In fact in melee combat AoA aren't normally used.
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Old 04-13-2006, 05:48 PM   #82
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Well, I could also create a non-munchkin archer on far fewer points, but he wouldn't be able to do the impossible things that people want fantasy archers to do. ;)
I am quite happy with my above variant of your archer ...

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=62


Not cinematic, but still good enough.
The point was to use such special arrows!

Last edited by TJA; 04-13-2006 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 04-13-2006, 05:58 PM   #83
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
It's a house rule from another thread. I'm only using canonical, as-printed rules in my sample characters, though.
Actually, it is pretty canonical: Lifting or Arm ST with a -20%, "only for the purposes of archery" limitation. I can't see any GM who permits Weapon Master disallowing it.

I agree with your point that an archer needs cinematic abilities to have much chance against a heavy infantryman in one-to-one combat. Still, the original post did not say whether it was for a fantasy campaign or not, he just used a template from Fantasy.
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Old 04-13-2006, 06:59 PM   #84
Kromm
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Just for comparison, here's a heroic 150-point hack'n'slasher who'd fit in with the 150-point heroic archer in a fantasy game. Again, I'd regard him as "starting level" for heroic high fantasy. He'd be unlikely in a realistic campaign, of course.

ST 15 [50]; DX 14 [80]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 12 [20].
Damage 1d+1/2d+1; BL 45 lbs.; HP 15 [0]; Will 11 [5]; Per 10 [0]; FP 12 [0].
Basic Speed 6.00 [-10]; Basic Move 6 [0]; Dodge 9; Parry 11; Block 11.

Advantages: High Pain Threshold [10]; Signature Gear (Granddad's Sword) [1].

Perks: Weapon Bond (Granddad's Sword) [1].

Disadvantages: Campaign- and personality-specific traits worth -40 points. [-40]

Quirks: Personality-specific traits worth -5 points. [-5]

Skills: Armoury/TL3 (Melee Weapons)-12 [8]; Brawling-14 [1]; Broadsword-16 [8]; Carousing-12 [1]; Fast-Draw (Sword)-14 [1]; First Aid/TL2-12 [4]; Hiking-12 [2]; Intimidation-12 [4]; Lifting-12 [2]; Shield-16 [4]; Stealth-13 [1]; Wrestling-14 [2].

Equipment: Boots (DR 2; $80; 3 lbs.); Broadsword (SG; 3 lbs.); Gauntlets (DR 4; $100; 2 lbs.); Legionary Helm (DR 4; $150; 6 lbs.); Mail Sleeves and Leggings (DR 4/2; $180; 24 lbs.); Medium Shield (DB 2; $60; 15 lbs.); Scale Torso Armor (DR 4; $420; 35 lbs.). Total Cost: $990; Total Weight: 88 lbs., or Light Encumbrance.
His damage is sw+1 with a broadsword, for 2d+2 cut. He'd swing for the neck at skill 16, +1 for Weapon Bond, -5 for hit location, or 12 or less -- or for the brain at 10 or less. His damage roll will be from 4 to 14, averaging 9. If he hits DR 4 on the neck, like his own armor, he'll average 5 points; due to the extra DR 2 for the skull, he'd only average 3 points to the brain. Doubled to the neck or quadrupled to the brain, that's 10 or 12 points, respectively. His average damage will incapacitate most foes. Maximum damage will kill an ordinary man in one shot either way.

A high-powered swordsman would add Combat Reflexes, Weapon Master, and more skill. He'd probably have a fine sword and more ST for higher damage, too. I'm also fond of leadership skills. Perhaps:

ST 17 [70]; DX 16 [120]; IQ 11 [20]; HT 14 [40].
Damage 1d+2/3d-1; BL 58 lbs.; HP 17 [0]; Will 12 [5]; Per 11 [0]; FP 14 [0].
Basic Speed 7.00 [-10]; Basic Move 7 [0]; Dodge 11*; Parry 13*; Block 13*.

Advantages: Combat Reflexes [15]; High Pain Threshold [10]; Signature Gear (Fine Elven Sword) [5]; Weapon Master (Broadsword and Shield) [25].

Perks: Weapon Bond (Fine Elven Sword) [1].

Disadvantages: Campaign- and personality-specific traits worth -40 points. [-40]

Quirks: Personality-specific traits worth -5 points. [-5]

Skills: Armoury/TL3 (Melee Weapons)-12 [4]; Brawling-16 [1]; Broadsword-19 [12]; Carousing-14 [1]; Fast-Draw (Sword)-17* [1]; First Aid/TL2-12 [2]; Hiking-13 [1]; Intimidation-12 [2]; Leadership-12 [4]; Lifting-13 [1]; Shield-18 [4]; Stealth-15 [1]; Tactics-12 [8]; Wrestling-16 [2].

* +1 for Combat Reflexes.

Equipment: Boots (DR 2; $80; 3 lbs.); Fine Thrusting Broadsword (SG; 3 lbs.); Gauntlets (DR 4; $100; 2 lbs.); Legionary Helm (DR 4; $150; 6 lbs.); Mail Sleeves and Leggings (DR 4/2; $180; 24 lbs.); Medium Shield (DB 2; $60; 15 lbs.); Scale Torso Armor (DR 4; $420; 35 lbs.). Total Cost: $990; Total Weight: 88 lbs., or Light Encumbrance.
His damage is sw+1 with a broadsword, for 3d cut. He gets +1 for blade quality and +6 (+2 per die) for Weapon Master, for 3d+7 cut. He'd swing for the neck at skill 19, +1 for Weapon Bond, -5 for hit location, or 15 or less -- or for the brain at 13 or less. His damage roll will be from 10 to 25, averaging 17.5. If he hits DR 4 on the neck, like his own armor, he'll average 13.5 points; due to the extra DR 2 for the skull, he'd only average 11.5 points to the brain. Doubled to the neck or quadrupled to the brain, that's 27 or 46 points, respectively. His average damage will kill most foes. Maximum damage is too disgusting to consider. And with a thrusting sword, he could instead stab at the weak spots over the vitals at 10 or less, for 1d+7 impaling (1d+2 basic thrust, +2 for a thrusting broadsword, +1 for fine quality, and +2 for Weapon Master).

Note that none of these four guys are "min/maxed." You could easily get rid of the IQ, noncombat skills, etc., and crank ST and skill further. You could probably get some godawful equipment by playing with Signature Gear and Wealth (or just buying things that I overlooked). The idea is to present well-rounded fighters with at least some roleplaying potential.
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Old 04-13-2006, 07:16 PM   #85
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

I have about a 20-40% hit rate, against charging targets with 3-foot diameter round-shields. That is, I hit them in the *torso, groin or legs, and they fail to block.

Granted this is only at about 10-30 yards. But, I'm using a 60" wooden recurve with a quite weak 25 lb draw, and very slow-moving arrows, with 3" nerf-balls attatched to the ends (not exceptionally accurate, and prone to follow even light breezes.)

Full tower shields are a serrious problem, of course. As are Monks, who are allowed to deflect (and catch) arrows with their weapons or bare-hands.

This almost always involves at least 2 seconds of aiming per shot, wether I'm threatened by other opponents or not. Come to think of it, the only time I don't aim is against targets without shields, who aren't aware of me shooting at them. I can snapshot at 10-15 yards with better than a 50% hit rate.

I am sure this also doesn't count as true combat. While it's not range-shooting, I do know my life isn't at stake and it's all for fun.

I honestly think that, given a good bow and quality arrows, I'd have a good chance of stopping a lightly armored opponent with a round/kite shield, coming at me from 50 yards or so. I am very confident that I could do it if I ambushed them in the terrain of my choosing (which an archer should always try to do).



* In Amtgard, head shots don't count, and are discouraged. People often complain about me hitting them in the face. My reply: "You shouldn't have ducked." A few have complained about me hitting them or the groin (which is completely legal). Again my reply: "You shouldn't have jumped."
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Old 04-13-2006, 10:57 PM   #86
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
There was a coment further up about Weapon Bond being "unrealistic".
I would say that in most fantasy campaigns those who are not using stock equipment SHOULD have weapon bond. It is cheap and gives a bonus. It is the final customization of your weapon to your particular liking. That is the "let's get a bow that has exactly the size I need and get a grip made that fits me" thing that most professionals will go through as standard part of operation.
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Old 04-13-2006, 11:10 PM   #87
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas
Actually, it is pretty canonical: Lifting or Arm ST with a -20%, "only for the purposes of archery" limitation. I can't see any GM who permits Weapon Master disallowing it.
I would. For one thing, by-the-book bows would use Striking ST, and for another, as firing their bow would be about the only thing an archer would use arm ST for it strikes me as a bit of a crock to give them a discount, especially of 20%.
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Last edited by Rupert; 04-13-2006 at 11:12 PM. Reason: Fixing bad wording
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:37 AM   #88
Kromm
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thona

I would say that in most fantasy campaigns those who are not using stock equipment SHOULD have weapon bond. It is cheap and gives a bonus. It is the final customization of your weapon to your particular liking. That is the "let's get a bow that has exactly the size I need and get a grip made that fits me" thing that most professionals will go through as standard part of operation.
Both Signature Gear and Weapon Bond are nice incentives for characterization, too. They encourage players to name their weapons, come up with stories behind them, and keep them instead of engaging in this "Ooo, the dead guy has a better sword! I toss mine in the weeds and take his!" silliness. It's practically a staple of fantasy that every hero has a trusty weapon, often a family heirloom with a name, that he sticks with throughout his career.
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Old 04-14-2006, 12:42 AM   #89
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
The difference isn't really that much. However the archer will now have the opportunity to aim at vitals, or at longer ranges and still have some chance to land a hit. Note that the archer takes 6 seconds to have 61%, and forfeits his defenses.
Luther,
You have placed some real agument. That's true.
But, for me +4 is to much, and any other number is just a change with no atempt for consolidation.

And You constantly scary me :o) , when "testing" further +3 to hit on most useless weapon. Again, let's imagine automatic weapons...
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Old 04-14-2006, 03:23 AM   #90
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Default Re: How to make an archer ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJA
Removing that +2 from Weapon Master, we get a 1d+4 or 7.5 points - together with that armor-piercing arrows against Chain armor, that will be 3.5 points trippled to 10.5 against vitals.
No, with bodkin point arrows the DR of the chain armor is halved, so you get 5.5 points of average damage, tripled to 16.5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJA
Equipment: Fine Composite Bow (SG; 4 lbs.); Fine Bodkin Arrows x20 ($120; 2 lbs.); Hip Quiver ($15; 1 lb.); Leather Arms, Boots, Gloves, Helm, Legs, and Torso (DR 2; $340; 19.5 lbs.); Medium Buckler (DB 2; $60; 15 lbs.); Shortsword ($400; 2 lbs.). Total Cost: $935; Total Weight: 43.5 lbs., or Light Encumbrance.
If you drop Signature Gear from Kromm's template, you'll have to pay the $3,600 for the Fine Composite Bow (or $900 for a normal one), so you'll need some wealth. Which is considerably more expensive than Signature Gear.
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