Classifying Shields

[benz72]

A few thoughts...

shape... add kite (elongated narrow heater)

material... add 'frame and skin' type leather, wicker and turtle shell shields.

damage rules... can add a lot of realism , but require a lot of bookeeping to do. without running any numbers I would guess that you would loos a shield about the same percentage of time if you just had all crit failures with a shield against melee attacks ruin it. (strap broke, face cleaved, whatever depending on what it was defending against)

clasification by utilization vs clasification by shape/size...
I'm more inclined to pick BOTH.
certain maneuvers with a shield are easier with a canter-grip than a strap, others ar harder. list those as bonuses and penalties to their skill rolls. certain shapes are lighter for the amount of coverage they provide, others heavier (and probably cheaper). The thing is, with a matrix or grip-type, size, shape and material we can produce detailed game effects on technique bonuses/penalties, cost, weight, durability, repairbility (if we want that detail) and pretty much any other attribute we might desire to model.

e.g.1 A medium plywood center-grip round with a rawhide edge.
The plywood construction gives it a bonus +20% HP, but doubles the construction cost and tripples the time required.
The center grip could allow it to be fought at extension for X turns by expending a fatigue point, letting it count as a large shield against one opponent for the duration. However the center grip makes slams more difficult, when attempting a slam the bearer is at -1 and on a failure the shield is unready until he can make a successful DX check (min 1 round).
The rawhide edge blunts the first point of damage to the shield if the block is successful by more than 3. If the block succeeds by 0 (barely made it) the rawhide is destroyed (but may be replaced if the shieldbearer lives long enough).


e.g.2 A steel medium-sized strapped heater
Thin steel is heavy, expensive and very durable. add +X% weight, +Y% cost and +Z% construction time. it is repairable with appropriate armory facilities.
The steel edge can inflict damage on wooden weapons swung at it, damage = 1/3 margin of success with the block (min 0).
A strapped heater is very good at blocking torso and head on the shield side, (+1 to attempts to block from those directions) but not good at blocking legs or the weapon side (-1 to attempts to block in those directions) and it cannot block shots to the foot without kneeling (MV=1 in any turn where this is attampted).

These are just a few quick thoughts... guys who use shields regularly can come up with a LOT more about individual size/shape/strapping peculiarities.
Perhaps someone will write a pyramid article on it.

[Dangerious P. Cats]

I think that rather than breaking it down around size/shape perhaps it would be better to think in terms of how much of the body the shield can cover.

[Groslon]

In my (SCA) experience most metal shields are between .09 and .1 Inches in thickness, and their wooden cousins are approximately .25 inches. This thickness is a constant regardless of the size of the shield. To my knowledge this is fairly accurate historically, though obviously some cultures deviated from the norm.

Wooden shields are usually built of two or more thin layers of wood glued together, possibly pressed into a curve, and then covered with a protective layer of canvas. These steps help enhance the strength of the shield by allowing the wood grain to travel in more than one direction, and to hold the shield together even if one layer has failed.

Small shields, in their longest dimension, the measurement from the wielder's elbow to hand. A medium rectangular, or kite, shield should measure from shoulder to just below the hip. Large shields are anything bigger than that that you feel like picking up.

[pawsplay]

if the shield is strapped to your arm, then it is a shield, whereas if it is held in one hand by a grip in the center of the shield, it is a buckler.

That would make the scutum a "bucker" in GURPS terms and ineligible for a shield slam! I ran into that problem while writeing up a proposal for a book on gladiators.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

That would make the scutum a "bucker" in GURPS terms and ineligible for a shield slam! I ran into that problem while writeing up a proposal for a book on gladiators.

So would the large circular shields used in the Trojan War and many others throughout the world. Low Tech needs to fix the way shields are treated in GURPS

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by hal

Sadly, as far as the GURPS rules are concerned, small shields with their DR of 6 and their HP of 30, will generally outlast an ordinary fighter's involvement in any combat. <SNIP>

Chances are better for the NPC or PC using a shield will die before he needs a new shield.

Hey Hal,
Any rule can you recomend for shields? Of the top of my head, I was thinking of the Mortal Wound Rule to be used in shields. If the shield takes X amount of damage, roll Item HT (bonuses or penalties for quality and improvements) or it simply breaks, but as I write this I see a lot of problems with it. It would be nice to add this to the discussioin so that we have some filler rules until Low Tech's schedule can be determined.

Even if Low Tech is in the works, the lack of a scheduled release is making the wait unbearable.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

That would make the scutum a "bucker" in GURPS terms and ineligible for a shield slam! I ran into that problem while writeing up a proposal for a book on gladiators.

I'm a sci-fi fan but this shield thing intrigues me - after all, if we can't replicate historical reality, how can we hope to do future tech.

The Scutum = Shield (Buckler) interested me after reading a Wiki-linked article about shields. It described their construction and tactics. The key notes for the scutum being: hold at boss, rush & down enemy, crouch behind grounded shield. http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_shield.html

Maybe this is just another of those GURPS jargon versus common language usage conflicts.
If you take the Technique TA(Buckler Bash/Face), 4cp gets it at the max of Shield skill-2. With a skill of 15, you have an effective skill of 9 for a move&attack; without the move, it's 13. I find the probabilities from these numbers stunning, no pun intended. A shield Rush can knock your opponent over. A shield Bash can drop him, stunned, and leave you an easy kill; this, to me, is in keeping with the described use. Also, a Dodged Rush sounds very nasty and you can't Rush whilst holding ground but you can Bash.

The DR/HP numbers are much more troubling. I'd halve the Basic listed values. The shields I found stats for were: Hoplon, 7sqft, 0.2" wood, leather back, metal cover, 16lb, Shield; Scutum, 10sqft, 0.5" ply-wood, leather cover, metal rim & boss, 18lb, Shield (Buckler); average celtic shield, 7sqft, 0.3" (ply)wood, felt/leather covered, double covered rim, 18lbs, Shield/ Shield (Buckler). If I was running a game where these mattered, I'd be happy with DB2 for all three, Hoplon DR4 HP30, Scutum DR3 HP20, Celtic DR2 HP15.

[nik1979]

Considering that the bossed shield is held at its boss, the elbow and the shoulder can add another two points of support, allowing to shield to be held for a slam.

[DanHoward]

GURPS defines a "buckler" as any shield with a central hand grip and boss. A "shield" is strapped to the arm. The size of the shield is irrelevant. Each needs its own specialization. Low Tech differentiates slightly between the two: Shields get -1 to Feint; Bucklers get -1 to damage when attacking. Low Tech fixes the anomaly on p. B406 that says Roman scutums (large bucklers) cannot Shield Rush.

[Mr Frost]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

...The shields I found stats for were: Hoplon, 7sqft, 0.2" wood, leather back, metal cover, 16lb...

That's Wikipedia/the internet for you :)

The "Hoplon" was isn't really the right name for the shield {it is a confusing issue that never seems to get a straight answer} . Argive or Aspis are the names that fit {for the classical pre-Iphikrates reforms Hoplite} .
The most important mistake however is that the weight was as much as twice that listed or more !

The mighty Hoplitai Aspis' great weight was one reason for the extra strap that allowed some of the weight to be born on the shoulders and helped give a hoplites' charge a serious increase in impact .

Their was a technique that was actually shown supprisingly realistically {if such a term can be appilied to this particular movie :)} in 300 using the mass of the Argive shield and Phalanx formation where on a signal the rearward ranks would each push the rank in front simultaniously and the front rank would shove the enemy in front of them with their shield {the part of the movie that showed this was when the Spartans -or should that be SPARTANS !!11!ONE1! :D- recieved the first Persian charge and halted its' momentum} that greatly disrupted the enemy formation and could even send a sort of "shockwave" through tightly packed formations that could literally hurl men through the air . The technique could not have worked with a 16lb shield !




It's no slight on you of course {just realised that I might have "sounded" critical , which is not my intention} , but the classical Argive Hoplite shield is a notably more formidable piece of equiptment that that source told you .


I like the idea of more realistic shield stats , it would make the historical differences important , espically with a few sensible house rules on str requirements and perhaps extra fatigue for heavy designs {the Scutum was also heavy at 22lbs and being the entire weight was supported by only the left hand it would have been at least as tiring to hold , if not more so} etc .