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Old 07-27-2020, 06:14 AM   #1
Elrond
 
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Default basic move and walking

According to B17, basic move is the speed at which a character can run. Obviously the combat rules assume running all the time. Now I wondered at what speed a character walks, as opposed to running. I couldn't find a straight answer anywhere in the books I own, so I looked for clues.

According to B345, paced running goes at half sprinting speed, which is 0.5 * 1.2 = 0.6 * Move. So the average person with no encumbrance will do paced running at 3 yps. Walking must be slower than that.

Next stop was the hiking rules in B351. These rules take BM, modify it for terrain, weather and exhaustion and that's hiking speed. But that means that a person, in ideal circumstances and no exhaution, hikes as fast as he runs, and even faster if he makes his hiking roll! That doesn't sound very realistic to me. Even when you take fatigue and breaks into account, these rules arrive at very high speeds. It's basically forced marches by well-trained persons.

So I look further, at the box "realistic foot travel" in Low tech companion 2. This box presents a calculation taking into account rest breaks during the day. In the end it arrives at a pretty realistic average hiking speed (which averages in the breaks needed to recover FP, but not foraging). If I do this calculation for an unencumbered average person in ideal circumstances, I arrive at 2.14 mph which is 1.07 yps. I actually calculated it for all encumbrance levels and it ends up at 0.135 yps for extra heavy encumbrance. The extra encumbered guy would have to rest for 50 minutes after every hour of walking at move 1.

Of course all this is way too slow to map nicely to 1 yard hexes and 1 second rounds, and I assume that's the reason why theses numbers are not in the book, except in hiking rules that assume a much larger scale, so tracing walking speed would require scaling up at least a factor 10 or so to make the numbers work nicely. But would these numbers be acceptable for characters walking around in a dungeon? I guess it would still be erring on the high side, because people wary of danger at every corner and/or trying to be stealthy will be slower than marching speed, but I can't find anything better.
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Old 07-27-2020, 06:53 AM   #2
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Default Re: basic move and walking

A quick Google search indicates humans typically walk at between 3 and 4 mph, or roughly 1.5 to 2 yards per second. That works out to between 30% and 40% of Move; I'd personally err on the lower end. Characters actively on the lookout for traps, ambushes, etc, may be going a bit slower - 20% of Move is likely acceptable there. Offhand, I'd treat characters at 30% of Move as being at -4 to Per rolls and the like, while those at 20% take no penalty; Combat Reflexes gives +2 either way (note this is roughly based on the Situational Awareness rules from GURPS Tactical Shooting). Note a group of mixed-speed delvers would have several travel speeds to choose from. For example, let's say you've got a Move 3, Move 5, and Move 8 character, all in the same party. At 0.6 yards per second (1.2 mph), everyone is at 20% or lower. At 1 yard per second, Move 3 guy is right around 30% so is at -4 Per, but the other two are fine. At 1.5 yards per second (3 mph), Move 3 guy is jogging (thus making HT rolls to avoid fatigue every so often) and still at -4 to Per, Move 5 guy is at 30% Move and thus at -4 to Per, and Move 8 guy is fine. At 2.5 yards per second (5 mph), Move 3 guy is running (for more frequent HT rolls), Move 5 guy is jogging, and Move 8 guy is at -4 to Per for 30% Move. Their maximum movement rate is 3.6 yards per second (7.2 mph), with Move 3 guy sprinting, Move 5 guy running (although only just above a jog), and Move 8 guy jogging.
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Old 07-27-2020, 07:35 AM   #3
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Default Re: basic move and walking

Dungeon movement is generally very slow and careful, so how fast you're capable of moving probably isn't relevant. The Stealth skill says you get -5 if you move faster than Move 1, so Move 1 should be assumed for all normal dungeon movement, where you're generally trying to remain quiet, if not actually use the Stealth skill.

So that's one yard per second, or 60 yards per minute. That seems a generous creep-along-the-dungeon-corridor movement rate. It won't be affected by encumbrance, but it's also not "moving silently." It's just not attention-getting noise. If you're actually trying to use the Stealth skill, that's when encumbrance takes effect, and it affects your chances to be silent, not your movement rate.

In the general case, though, any character can move any speed up to their Move (modified for encumbrance). Exactly when that switches from creep to slow walk to fast walk to trot to run isn't defined in the basic rules. We do know that "paced running" at full Move costs 1 FP per minute on a failed HT roll. Below that, anything goes. In general, for normal human characters, I'd call Move 1 a casual walk and Move 2 a brisk walk. Move 3 is probably a trot, and anything above that is running.
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Old 07-27-2020, 07:40 AM   #4
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Default Re: basic move and walking

Since 1986, GURPS has assumed that Move 1 (2 mph) is a slow walk that doesn't penalize Stealth; Move 2 (4 mph) is an everyday walk; Move 3 (6 mph) is a sustainable jog or run for almost anyone; and Move 4+ (8 mph) is true running, with Move 5 (10 mph) being the average human's top speed with the capacity to maneuver and Move 6 (12 mph) being the average human's all-out sprint in a straight line. See Invisibility Art (p. B202), Stealth (p. B222), and Running (p. B354) for useful sources that support these claims.

The commonly cited real-life figures are "3 to 4 mph" for a walk, "5 to 6 mph" for a marathon (sustainable run), and "10 to 15 mph" for a short-burst run. So the match is not too bad.

If you want world-record numbers, that's a sprint of 27.78 mph, or Move 13.6, which corresponds to a sprint for someone with Move 11 or so. Thus, Move 11 would be a fair hard cap on Basic Move in a realistic campaign.

A group of scientists calculated the theoretical absolute maximum for human physiology at 40 mph, or Move 19.6, which corresponds to a sprint for Move 16 or so. This isn't likely possible in reality, because it assumes a bunch of perfect conditions that cannot occur all at once . . . but in a supers campaign, you could use Move 16 as the maximum for "perfect human specimens" engineered using super-soldier technologies. To give you an idea of just how crazy that is: If someone has human-maximum DX 20 and HT 20, giving Basic Speed 10.00; adds human-maximum +2.00 to that for Basic Speed 12.00, giving Basic Move 12; and then adds human maximum +3 to that for Basic Move 15 . . . well they're still not quite there.
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Old 07-27-2020, 08:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: basic move and walking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
Obviously the combat rules assume running all the time.
Actually, this is true in D&D, not exactly in GURPS. At least in my experience, unless the characters are fleeing or in pursuit, much of the movement will be step by step. Generally, combat maneuvers do not allow you to run, just take a step (usually one yard). You need to use Move and Attack maneuver to use your full move, but you usually will have a huge penalty in the attack, which will be very limited (maximum SL 9).

Of course, cinematic characters and Supers may not have these restrictions.
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Old 07-27-2020, 08:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: basic move and walking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanjo7Sagi View Post

At least in my experience, unless the characters are fleeing or in pursuit, much of the movement will be step by step. Generally, combat maneuvers do not allow you to run, just take a step (usually one yard).
I've played GURPS since before it was GURPS (that is, since it was Man to Man), and that has been my experience as well. Just about all movement in combat is steps, with "lots of movement" being a step and a retreat on the same turn. True runs are rare, and mainly used to get into combat, get out of combat, or build up speed for the occasional slam.
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Old 07-27-2020, 08:15 AM   #7
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Default Re: basic move and walking

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Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
Of course all this is way too slow to map nicely to 1 yard hexes and 1 second rounds, and I assume that's the reason why theses numbers are not in the book, except in hiking rules that assume a much larger scale, so tracing walking speed would require scaling up at least a factor 10 or so to make the numbers work nicely. But would these numbers be acceptable for characters walking around in a dungeon? I guess it would still be erring on the high side, because people wary of danger at every corner and/or trying to be stealthy will be slower than marching speed, but I can't find anything better.
Im curious about how this a factor in game play? I see your math, but I cant see why its really all that critical to get it more correct than it is written.

Moving in general is broken into tactical and non-tactical movements. Tactical movement is important because it determines your movement against some one else or against an object or timer. You need this to resolve things like who saw who first and who got to the key first. Group of 5 people running to get out of the room before the gate drops... Tactical, each person is resolved individually to see if they can get out.

Non tactical movement is important because it gives you a framework for travel time, thats pretty much it. Same group of 5 people going from village A to village B, assuming they intend to stay together, you just need to know the travel rate of the slowest person to know how many days it will take them to arrive. It doesnt matter which person in the party arrives first, as they are moving as a group.

I dont know why you need to have them both unify when one doesnt really matter to the other.

Now Hiking...

Hiking is a skill. Hiking encompasses a lot of factors not the least of which is training. You have conditioned your body to be more efficient at hiking than some guy from walmart. You may well hike at an average speed closer to a jog. If you ever walk around with hikers after they have come off a long trail you will notice that they hit a stride and leave regular folks in the dust pretty quick. Its not cause they are trying to, its just that they are conditioned to. I have witnessed these conversations several times with friends that are thru-hikers, it takes them time to readjust to normal people wander rates.

Also for game move rates, Hiking is Averaged movement for long streches of time, not moving from room to room in a Dungeon (at least thats how I would rule it). Hiking also has to account for sometimes the trail is better than other times, sometimes you can pick the easiest way, sometimes not, but its an average movement rate that the GM sets based on the average conditions. Moving around in a room isnt an average, you go around the chair, step over the cat and stop to open the door. Your dealing with finite obstacles.

Basic vs Lowtech I think what you are seeing there was a desire to set some kind of "realistic enough" rate to replicate the rates of movement for people that lived in those conditions. There is/was a lot of back and forthing about how long it took a peasant to get from the farm to the market, or the Market to the next town. Most of these conversations occur because people just want to have an idea of how far can your Peasant travel in a day. This crosses from game play to simulation at some point and then the real question is "What is a good enough answer?".

I think the move rates as written work fine in general.

Im interested in what it is that doesnt line up for you when your playing? Or maybe a better question, what is it about the discrepancy that causes your game play to be impacted?
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Old 07-27-2020, 08:39 AM   #8
Elrond
 
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Default Re: basic move and walking

Thanks for the replies guys. So, I will assume move 1 for just walking when wary, and 2 otherwise. Without encumbrance playing a role. Encumbrance only comes into play when you're actually trying to be fast. That's quite easy.

About the remark about combat: I was thinking about move and move-and-attack manouvres. Of course you are right that a lot of actual movement in combat is steps and retreats.

The point of all this is to get some more concrete idea of time passing out of combat. A pretty large proportion of time is spent just walking around in dungeon corridors and I wanted a bit less abstracted idea of how long that actually takes. That quickly lead to the question of how fast people actually walk in GURPS when not running. The closest approximation I could find was in the hiking rules. But of course just assuming Move 1 or 2 is a lot simpler and also probably more accurate.
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Old 07-27-2020, 08:50 AM   #9
DouglasCole
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Default Re: basic move and walking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanjo7Sagi View Post
Actually, this is true in D&D,
The usual D&D5 30' move is over a five-second time span. That's 2 yards per second . . . or a walk. The five-foot step that is allowed as part of a combat action is thus even slower: about two yards but spread over the aforementioned five seconds, net velocity 1/3 of a yard per second (1 foot per second).

The only issue with D&D movement rates in combat is on the upper end, not the lower. "Dashing" is "only" double your basic movement allowance, which is a trot. To really sprint, one needs to allow a rate of 6-8x basic move.

28mph is about 200 feet per turn...betweeen 6-7x the human basic move allowance. The maximum theoretical speed to which Sean refers would be about 10x the 30' move given to humans.

So D&D movement is chunky but works fine velocity wise.
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Old 07-27-2020, 08:57 AM   #10
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Default Re: basic move and walking

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Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
Non tactical movement is important because it gives you a framework for travel time, thats pretty much it.
The problem is that the rules only get specific about travel time per day. Nowhere do they come right out and give you information that would tell you how long it would take to travel up this 60-yard corridor, then through this 20-yard-wide room, then down another 30-yard corridor, etc. You can, as Kromm says, work it out from scattered references in the rules, but it's not laid out plainly.

And this might matter. Your party is lost in a dungeon, your lanterns are out of fuel, and the rogue in the group knows a few spells, one of which is Light. He can cast it, but it'll cost him 1 FP per minute. Can he maintain the spell long enough for the party to escape the dungeon or at least find some torches? Should you risk moving faster than a slow walk? How long will it take to get out?
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