Repricing Advantages at different TLs

[RedMattis]

As I imagine just about everyone one the board has realized the value of things such as DR and Innate attack are greatly increased at lower TLs and also greatly decreased when the TL goes up.
This of course is a problem since your 50 points spent on things such as Charisma and Mind Control or things such Innate Attack and DR should have about equal value in a generic TL? setting.

Before going about altering the point costs of the advantages at different TLs we should decide on a TL where they are priced as per the RAW.
My suggestion is TL 7-8, since DR and Innate Attack (which I believe have the most variable value) are about worth their cost.
Going by this assumption I would change the values something like this.

- - - - -
Type 1 - Value of IA & DR
Low TLs (No skill-based magic)
TL1-3: ~Cost x3
TL3: ~Cost x2,5
TL4: ~Cost x2
TL5: ~Cost x1,5

High TLs
TL7-8: ~Cost /1
TL 9: ~Cost /1,75
TL 10: ~Cost /3
TL 11+: ~Cost /5


- - - - -
Type 2 - The value of traits such as IR vision and telepathy
Low TLs (No skill-based magic)
TL1-3: ~Cost x1,5-x2
TL3: ~Cost x1,5-x2
TL4: ~Cost x1,5-x2
TL5: ~Cost x1,5

High TLs
TL7-8: ~Cost /1
TL 9: ~Cost /1,5
TL 10: ~Cost /2
TL 11+: ~Cost /3

- - - - -
If the campaign uses very little or a lot of technology/weaponry the TL can be counted as one more or less than what is written on the table.


This is probably not as balanced as I'd like to think, but that where the rest of you come and correct me. ;)
Also, traits which advantages (or disadvantages) should fall into type 1 or 2.

I will post an updated table below once I've got a few opinions on this.


- - - - - (EDITED VERSION BELOW!)
Normal Campaign
Type 1 - Value of IA & DR
(Assuming: No skill-based magic)
TL0: Cost x3
TL2: Cost x2,5
TL4: Cost x2
TL6: Cost x1,5
TL8: Cost x1
TL9: Cost /1,75
TL10: Cost /2
TL12: Cost /3


Type 2 - The value of traits such as IR vision and telepathy*
(Assuming: No skill-based magic)
TL0: Cost x1,5-x2
TL4: Cost x1,5-x2
TL5: Cost x1,5
TL8: Cost /1
TL9: Cost /1
TL10: Cost /1,5
TL12: Cost /2


- - - - -

Technology Heavy Campaign
Type 1 - Value of IA & DR
(Assuming: No skill-based magic)
TL0: Cost x3
TL2: Cost x2
TL4: Cost x1
TL6: Cost x1,5
TL8: Cost /2
TL9: Cost /2,5
TL10: Cost /3
TL12: Cost /4


Type 2 - The value of traits such as IR vision and telepathy*
(Assuming: No skill-based magic)
TL0: Cost x1,5-x2
TL4: Cost x1,5-x2
TL5: Cost x1,5
TL7: Cost /1
TL 8: Cost /1,5
TL 10: Cost /2
TL 12: Cost /2,5

*This does not include advantages such as Mind Control, Dominance and similar things which cannot be reproduced with (non-rare) available gadgets.

EDIT: Added the updated version.

[Dangerious P. Cats]

I'm curious as to what you are basing this off. Some advantages (like the ability to telepathically control computers) are completely useless at low TLs, and consequently people don't take them. I've found DR even more useful at higher TLs because I end up in fist and knife fights more that sword fights, and in low damage situations like these a little DR goes a long way.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

I'm curious as to what you are basing this off. Some advantages (like the ability to telepathically control computers) are completely useless at low TLs, and consequently people don't take them.

You could probably do the same with your phone at higher TLs, or TL 8 if you had some more advanced equipment.
If you can take control over computers and machines then that's more like Mind Control (cybernetic, -50%), its usefulness doesn't really change with TLs since Mind Control rarely comes as a piece of equipment (and is often built with powers in the first place if it does).

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

I've found DR even more useful at higher TLs because I end up in fist and knife fights more that sword fights, and in low damage situations like these a little DR goes a long way.

Yes, but like I said, if heavy weaponry (or even guns) are rare in the setting then price it as if it was a lower TL.

I think most people agree that people buying DR in a combat heavy high TL world won't get all that much for their money (especially not when you consider that equipment shouldn't overshadow Gadget-advantages to much. Buying something similar to a TL 11 Power Armor with Gadget rules won't be cheap... even if you are counting the disadvantages of wearing one (people don't alow it everywhere etc.). Buying DX, Mind Control, Skills or something like that makes for far better spent points.)

[Dangerious P. Cats]

Mammoths! Low TL, high damage! ;)

But seriously buying a little DR at TL 7 or 8 to put under you body armour can go a long way. I find DR is really useful is settings where the armour doesn't let you reliably stop common weapons.

I think TL changes the nature of Innate Attacks. Better armour means armour divisors are what not. Also I find that Innate attacks are really useful in security mad TLs 7+ if it can't be detected.

[Extrarius]

How do you suggest cross-TL games deal with your proposed changes?

Also, doesn't powers have a suggestion for UBs based on how the ability compares to existing technology..?

[jspade]

I took a somewhat different approach here, normalizing to TL3 and basing variations off of starting cash (as a proxy for equipment value); your milage will, of course, vary.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

Mammoths! Low TL, high damage! ;)

But seriously buying a little DR at TL 7 or 8 to put under you body armour can go a long way. I find DR is really useful is settings where the armour doesn't let you reliably stop common weapons.

I think TL changes the nature of Innate Attacks. Better armour means armour divisors are what not. Also I find that Innate attacks are really useful in security mad TLs 7+ if it can't be detected.

Yes, but Innate Attacks with Armor divisors get expensive, and so does DR with hardened.
The undetectable nature of the default IA and DR is useful, but compared to the same advantage with a gadget or nuisance effect which makes it detectable it's combat value is still far below the usual weapons in a for example TL 10 game.

Originally Posted by Extrarius

How do you suggest cross-TL games deal with your proposed changes?

Also, doesn't powers have a suggestion for UBs based on how the ability compares to existing technology..?

Well, this is somewhat similar to the issue with some setting being very focused around fighting using no or very little weapons as opposed to high powered ones more often than not.
If you spend most of your time in, say TL 3 and TL 8 worlds/areas, and use the average weapons for the TL (no constantly running around with high powered sniper rifles in the TL 8 for example), then you could simply take an average value between the two TLs, that is:
1+2,5= 1,75 (x1,75 cost of IA & DR)
1+1,75= ~1,375 (1,5x cost of IR and such)
You could also take the average TL instead of the dividing/multiplicative value, depending on which gives the best results.

If you do run around with your guns and spy equipment in the TL 3 world also, then no real change would be necessary unless losing or leaving your equipment behind would be common (in which case you might mod the cost slightly).


To take another example of a problem with this system would be worlds with high level magic and enchantments, but in this case, simply count the world as having a higher TL. A world filled with magic where bracelets of 3d firebolts, amulets granting DR 7 force fields, and magic staffs throwing 6d energybolts enhanced to break through magical armor... would probably be just about the same as a TL as our world (TL8) in terms of powerful weaponry and gadgets granting IR vision.
If this magic is hard to come by and such, just adjust the TL as per how much high level weaponry and equipment is used.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by jspade

I took a somewhat different approach here, normalizing to TL3 and basing variations off of starting cash (as a proxy for equipment value); your milage will, of course, vary.

It sounds interesting, but it is mostly useful in a SUPERS and similar genres as mentioned in that text, especially since it forbids the use of mundane weapons and such.

The idea of basing the TL divisor of the starting wealth sounds very interesting though. Dividing the value of all the abilities mentioned by 20 at TL 8 seems a bit much for a regular game though.

It is probably pretty good solution for a SUPERS game, but I'm trying to create something that works in pretty much all genres, from cybernetic arms to dark magic and natural attack such as acid spiting.

[Exxar]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

As I imagine just about everyone one the board has realized the value of things such as DR and Innate attack are greatly increased at lower TLs and also greatly decreased when the TL goes up.

I had these problems, and solved them in a pretty simple manner. I looked at the standard weaponry of the setting, and gave a free Armor Divisor to all IAs equal to the Armor Divisor of said weaponry, as well as free levels of Hardened to DR to negate those Armor Divisors.

Haven't had a try at cross-TL adventures.

[Maz]

But doesn't Powers address this? (Or is it just Kromm that had mentioned it so many times I think it's in powers).

Anyway.
Take the upper cap of the weapons and armour available in that setting. For instance in TL:8 13d damage is among the high end of damage. At TL:3 3d is among the highest you get.

This is the maximum allowed damage for your setting. If people want more than this, you charge an unusual background.


Note that basing it on TL can get faulty as some worlds have very high DR/damage at differnt TL's.