Avatar (from Munchkin 8)

[Clipper]

The Avatar lets you essentially send in your avatar with a combat strength of triple your Level to fight the monster/s. From the card text, you don't appear to actually take part in the combat, only the Avatar. It also states that due to this, you escape automatically if it loses.

Clearly the intention of the escape is automatic is because the avatar is suffering all the bad stuff for you, just like when you discard a Hireling, but the Avatar lacks the text 'even if escape is impossible'. Monsters that can't be outrun trump escape is automatic unless they have this text, so it would seem they should still catch you even if your avatar is the one that loses, not you. This does seem to be at odds with the intention of the card.

Is it safer to say that you are removed completely from the combat when you send in the Avatar? That works with the card text, intention and so on, and escape is obviously automatic as you aren't actually fighting anything. If this is the solution to the problem, can a Thief steal items from you? Can you sell items to increase your level and provide your avatar a bonus? It is your turn and you aren't in combat, so both would be valid, I guess.

Long story short, how do we treat the situation when Avatar is played:
a) You are considered in combat but you don't add to the combat strength. If the Avatar loses, you are caught by any monsters that can't be outrun but escape the rest.
b) We add the text 'even if escape is impossible' to the card as errata. You are considered in combat but you don't add to the combat strength. If the Avatar loses, you escape from everything.
c) You are not considered in combat. You have nothing to escape from if the avatar loses.

And as a second, simpler question: Can a Thief backstab the Avatar? I assume no, as it isn't a 'player', even if it is the only thing actually fighting the monsters.

[MunchkinMan]

You don't suffer any Bad Stuff because escape is automatic.

Rather than try to make all kinds of assumptions about what it means that your Avatar is fighting for you, let's remember that Munchkin is, at the heart of it, a simple game that doesn't try to tax one too much in a philosophical sense. You're in combat, regardless of what Items you are using. You can't be stolen from, you can be backstabbed, everyone can play one-shots and Monster Enhancers, the only difference is that you can escape from all the Monsters unscathed (assuming they don't have "even if you escape" clauses).

[Clipper]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

You don't suffer any Bad Stuff because escape is automatic.

Rather than try to make all kinds of assumptions about what it means that your Avatar is fighting for you, let's remember that Munchkin is, at the heart of it, a simple game that doesn't try to tax one too much in a philosophical sense. You're in combat, regardless of what Items you are using. You can't be stolen from, you can be backstabbed, everyone can play one-shots and Monster Enhancers, the only difference is that you can escape from all the Monsters unscathed (assuming they don't have "even if you escape" clauses).

But it has been ruled multiple times in multiple threads that automatic escape techniques (e.g., Instant Wall) will not save you from monsters like Crabs and the Floating Nose that have conditions that make escape impossible. The only way I have known of to actually get away from these type of creatures is the Hireling discard method because it says you can escape automatically 'even if escape is impossible'. It seems to totally mismatch the intent of the card for some of these monsters to still find you after they finish off the Avatar that they were fighting.

In addition, is it safe to say that a backstab of "you" in this combat won't actually have any affect apart from causing the thief to discard a card? Backstabbing doesn't lower your level and your bonuses and penalties don't apply to this combat, right?

[MunchkinMan]

Backstabbing lowers combat strength. Just because the Avatar starts with an initial combat strength of 3 times your Level does not mean you can't affect it's combat strength later!

However, since I'm not the designer of this card, Andrew is, he can discuss his intent with you, rather than let you or I decide it for him. And, since he's away this weekend, I'll just close this thread for him to open it back up once he's home and has a chance to look it over.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by Clipper

Clearly the intention of the escape is automatic is because the avatar is suffering all the bad stuff for you, just like when you discard a Hireling, but the Avatar lacks the text 'even if escape is impossible'.

That's because the text on the card is already too long. You get away even from monsters that say escape is impossible, because they're chasing the Avatar, not you. You are technically still in combat, off to the side somewhere being as inconspicuous as possible, so you cannot be stolen from, you cannot play new Items or change the status of Items already in play, and you can be backstabbed (which makes your Avatar weaker as well).

[Clipper]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

That's because the text on the card is already too long. You get away even from monsters that say escape is impossible, because they're chasing the Avatar, not you. You are technically still in combat, off to the side somewhere being as inconspicuous as possible, so you cannot be stolen from, you cannot play new Items or change the status of Items already in play, and you can be backstabbed (which makes your Avatar weaker as well).

Thanks, that's great!

I just wanted to check that the backstab penalty isn't tripled and is still only -2, right?

Hmm, and another question. What if you use the Avatar after being backstabbed? I'm guessing the Avatar enters at 3*level - 2, but I'm not sure.

Also, can the Warrior's Berserking or Cleric's Turning powers be used in this fight (either before or after the Avatar is played)?

Edit: Obviously, none of these would work for the same reason given in the post below. Makes perfect sense to me now, so yay!

[Andrew Hackard]

Actually . . . looking at the card again, I'm reversing myself. Backstabbing the player has no effect on the Avatar, and Avatars cannot be backstabbed.

[Pax]

I'm assuming that the order of Avatar/GUALs/curses doesn't matter, like how it is with Mate/enhancers?

[Clipper]

Originally Posted by Pax

I'm assuming that the order of Avatar/GUALs/curses doesn't matter, like how it is with Mate/enhancers?

Yeah, I assume that too. The avatar's combat strength is your level * 3, so if your level changes, its combat strength changes. And according to Andrew's reversal, there is no way to change the combat strength of the Avatar that I can think of.

You could still change the combat strength of the Munchkin side, by playing a One-shot Item, for example, but the Avatar is a fixed value and changing the combat strength of the player is useless as his value is fixed at 0.

The only thing that's missing now in my understanding of the card is the Race and Class of the Avatar. As Andrew states you are still in the combat (just with a combat strength of 0 for all purposes), I'm going to assume the Race and Class of both you and your Hireling (if any) will apply for the monster's modifiers.

Edit: Another thread made me realise that I was wrong here about one-shots. There's no such thing as the Munchkin side's combat strength that exists separate to the Avatar's, so it is a fixed triple your level combat strength that can't change.