[Supers] Damage Resistance for Brick-type heroes

[CeeDub]

Okay, this is starting to make a whole lot more sense.

I think Flexible is not what Flying Bricks have. Just 5 points of crushing damage would inflict a 1 HP injury, even against DR 100. That would mean any normal person could kill Superman with a baseball bat (if he held still long enough).

That leaves the remaining -20% to be divided between the two Agents. Looking at it from the other side, Blood Agent is the greater limitation of the two; it doesn't just need to touch skin, like Contact Agent, it also needs to hit a mucous membrane or an open wound. Reading the RAW again, an attack with Blood Agent is apparently incapable of creating such a wound, that would need to be a Follow Up, for which the carrier attack needs to penetrate DR first. Reading it this way, that would mean that Tough Skin provides protection against neither Agents nor Follow Ups, even if the carrier attack does not penetrate DR.

However, Flying Brick DR does protect against Follow Ups (Superman is impervious to snake bites), but not against Contact Agents (bare skin, touch only - you can shake Superman's hand) nor Blood Agents (if they hit a membrane or find a pre-existing wound - Action Comics #1 showed Superman being affected by some sort of gaseous irritant).

Tough Skin:
Flexible -20%
Not Against Follow Ups -?%
Not Against Contact Agents -?%
Not Against Blood Agents -?%
Total: -40%

Flying Brick DR:
Not Against Contact Agents -?%
Not Against Blood Agents -?%
Total: -?%

What do you think?
Also, how would you name this modifier?

[DangerousThing]

How do you figure superman (in specific) can be harmed by a resonatory or contact attact? Unless of course the Attack is laced with some green k?

[CeeDub]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

How do you figure superman (in specific) can be harmed by a resonatory or contact attact? Unless of course the Attack is laced with some green k?

It was shown in one of his first appearances (although not in Action Comics #1, as I thought earlier). Granted, those were the days of Early Installment Weirdness, when Supes could not even fly yet and could be injured by "a bursting shell".

[Sam Baughn]

'Not against follow-ups' shouldn't be a valid limitation on DR, since follow-ups which are attached to a penetrating attack already ignore DR.

[CeeDub]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

'Not against follow-ups' shouldn't be a valid limitation on DR, since follow-ups which are attached to a penetrating attack already ignore DR.

But according to the RAW it is. Normally the Follow Up ignores DR, but only if the carrier attack penetrates DR. Tough Skin protects against the damage of the carrier attack, but explicitly not against its Follow Up - the carrier only needs to hit, even if the damage is completely stopped by DR.

Example: Achilles, the DR 1000 (Tough Skin, -40%) superhero, gets attacked by a regular, garden-variety rattlesnake. Achilles has Overconfidence regarding his own invulnerability, ignores the warning rattle and does not use active defense to dodge. The snake bites his naked calf. The fangs are stopped by his Tough Skin and don't sink into his flesh - he takes 0 damage/injury, but since he has the Tough Skin modifier, the fangs make enough of a scratch for the venom to seep into. Oops. Let's hope Achilles' player didn't also suffer from Overconfidence and dump-stat Achilles' HT attribute.

ETA: Please note that I'm not arguing against how Tough Skin works or how it's priced, it makes perfect sense IMO. It's just not the kind of modifier that models the kind of DR you see in the comics, which is what I'm looking for, and neither are Flexible or unmodified DR.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by CeeDub

But according to the RAW it is. Normally the Follow Up ignores DR, but only if the carrier attack penetrates DR. Tough Skin protects against the damage of the carrier attack, but explicitly not against its Follow Up - the carrier only needs to hit, even if the damage is completely stopped by DR.

That's not 'Not Against Follow-Ups'; it's closer to 'Not Against Blood Agents' (although DR is never applied to Blood Agents, so maybe 'vulnerable to Blood Agents' might be a better way to phrase it).

The follow-up only gets past DR because it's a blood agent. An explosive or incendiary follow-up wouldn't be able to get through the DR. Likewise, a blood agent which wasn't a follow-up would bypass the DR if it hit the scratch, thanks to being linked to the initial attack or simply splashed across the wound.

[CeeDub]

Originally Posted by Perfect Organism

That's not 'Not Against Follow-Ups'; it's closer to 'Not Against Blood Agents' (although DR is never applied to Blood Agents, so maybe 'vulnerable to Blood Agents' might be a better way to phrase it).

The follow-up only gets past DR because it's a blood agent. An explosive or incendiary follow-up wouldn't be able to get through the DR. Likewise, a blood agent which wasn't a follow-up would bypass the DR if it hit the scratch, thanks to being linked to the initial attack or simply splashed across the wound.

Not quite. Follow Up and Blood Agent are separate and incompatible Penetration Modifiers, and for a reason. DR does apply to Blood Agents, in that any DR explicity stops any Blood Agent cold (unless it's also an Area Effect or one of the other exceptions, which would mean that DR is exchanged for Nictitating Membrane or Sealed, but that's neither here nor there). Blood Agents need to find a way in, whereas a Follow Up can make one, via its carrier.

Looking from the other side again, if it was just 'Not Against Blood Agents', Venomfang the supervillain could just spit his haemotoxin across Achilles' bare chest and have it take effect. That's not what's happening with Tough Skin. Conversely, if Tough Skin didn't include a limitation against Follow Ups, you'd have to (1) attack with a knife/fang/whatever first, (2) hit, (3) penetrate any DR worn on top of the Tough Skin, (4) then attack in the next round with your Blood Agent, and (5) hit the same location again, this time ignoring any DR. That's a much more serious limitation than "(1) hit and (2) penetrate any DR worn on top of the Tough Skin".

Also, according to the RAW, Tough Skin explicitly permits any Follow Up that requires a scratch or skin contact, poison was only given as an example.

[Phantasm]

Have you looked at Force Field? A lot of writers have stated that Superman's invulnerability is essentially a skin-tight force field, which is why he's been shot in the eye and deflected the bullet without blinking, taking no damage (and not even showing any pain).

Force Field modified with an "Accessibility: Not Against Contact Agents, -10%", for a total price of +18% (listed as "Force Field (+20%; Accessibility, -10%), +18%" on a sheet) might model the effect you're going for.

[Bruno]

Blood agents require better contact than bare skin. They require BLOOD contact, or mucus membranes, eyes, and other particularly delicate surfaces. Skin is designed to keep crap out, those membranes are not. Heck, many of them are designed to absorb materials.

Contact agents require touching bare skin (or mucus membranes or whatever).

Melee attacks just require thumping them (on the clothes, the armor, the skin, whatever).

[CeeDub]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Have you looked at Force Field?

I have, and I'm re-evaluating it again, but IMO the modifier I'm looking for is a limitation, not an enhancement.

RAW against a naked superhero with DR 1000 (Tough Skin, -40%):

1d-2 cut Innate Attack (Bite) with 2d tox Follow Up: Always does 2d tox damage.
2d tox Innate Attack (venom spray) (Blood Agent, -40%; Jet +0%): Does 2d tox damage only if you hit a pre-existing open wound, randomly or with a targeted attack.
1d-2 cut melee attack (knife, claw, fang): Never does any damage, but creates a scratch that would enable the above 2d tox Innate Attack (venom spray) to take effect if it hits the scratch.
2d tox Innate Attack (Death Touch) (Melee Attack (C), Cannot Parry, -35%; Contact Agent, -30%): Always does 2d tox damage.
5d cr melee attack: Always causes at least 1 HP (damage / 5) of cr injury through Blunt Force Trauma, not blocked by DR.
2d tox Innate Attack (venom spray) (Blood Agent, -40%; Jet +0%), aimed at eyes or open mouth: Always does 2d tox damage.

I'm okay with all of this. Consistent logic, fairly priced, all good, no argument here. It's just not what we see in the comics. This is what I'm looking for, changes from above in bold:

Against a naked Flying Brick-type superhero with DR 1000 (unknown modifier):

1d-2 cut Innate Attack (Bite) with 2d tox Follow Up: Never does any damage.
2d tox Innate Attack (venom spray) (Blood Agent, -40%; Jet +0%): Does 2d tox damage only if you hit a pre-existing open wound, randomly or with a targeted attack. This would have to result from a previous attack that was powerful enough to penetrate DR and cause an open wound, i.e. not the 1d-2 cut melee attack (knife, claw, fang) below.
1d-2 cut melee attack (knife, claw, fang): Never does any damage, and does not even scratch the skin.
2d tox Innate Attack (Death Touch) (Melee Attack (C), Cannot Parry, -35%; Contact Agent, -30%): Always does 2d damage.
5d cr melee attack: Never does any damage.
2d tox Innate Attack (venom spray) (Blood Agent, -40%; Jet +0%), aimed at eyes or open mouth: Always does 2d tox damage (although this is debatable, thank you for pointing it out, tbrock1031).

What's the difference worth and what do we call this unknown modifier?

To illustrate why this is a limitation compared to unmodified DR:

RAW against a naked Flying Brick-type superhero with DR 1000, compared to the unknown modifier:

1d-2 cut Innate Attack (Bite) with 2d tox Follow Up: Never does any damage.
2d tox Innate Attack (venom spray) (Blood Agent, -40%; Jet +0%): Does 2d tox damage only if you hit a pre-existing open wound, randomly or with a targeted attack. This would have to result from a previous attack that was powerful enough to penetrate DR and cause an open wound, i.e. not the 1d-2 cut melee attack (knife, claw, fang) below.
1d-2 cut melee attack (knife, claw, fang): Never does any damage, and does not even scratch the skin.
2d tox Innate Attack (Death Touch) (Melee Attack (C), Cannot Parry, -35%; Contact Agent, -30%): Never does any damage.
5d cr melee attack: Never does any damage.
2d tox Innate Attack (venom spray) (Blood Agent, -40%; Jet +0%), aimed at eyes or open mouth: Always does 2d tox damage.

RAW against a naked Flying Brick-type superhero with DR 1000 (Force Field, +20%), also compared to the unknown modifier:

1d-2 cut Innate Attack (Bite) with 2d tox Follow Up: Never does any damage.
2d tox Innate Attack (venom spray) (Blood Agent, -40%; Jet +0%): Never does any damage.
1d-2 cut melee attack (knife, claw, fang): Never does any damage, and does not even scratch the skin.
2d tox Innate Attack (Death Touch) (Melee Attack (C), Cannot Parry, -35%; Contact Agent, -30%): Never does any damage.
5d cr melee attack: Never does any damage.
2d tox Innate Attack (venom spray) (Blood Agent, -40%; Jet +0%), aimed at eyes or open mouth: Never does any damage.

I hope this clears things up a bit. I certainly learned a lot from this discussion, thanks to all who contributed.