Something much better than high school

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Perception definitely CAN be trained, I am just not sure if it WOULD be. It would probably depend a lot on the politics of the society - many governments would prefer a smart but oblivious populace.

Yes, it can be trained.

No, the curriculum and methods described above would not be the right way to train it. Nor would it be a likely investment of time and resources, frankly, as only very specialised trades would require a raised Per and those would probably take up hobbies that could help with raising it.

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I agree. Levels of IQ gained through education should definitely not raise Per and Will.

It seems like that would depend on the kind of education. And I can certainly see Will being sufficiently important in a TL10 culture that it's included (probably not Per, though).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by gjc8

It seems like that would depend on the kind of education. And I can certainly see Will being sufficiently important in a TL10 culture that it's included (probably not Per, though).

Well, the kind of education is a 'liberal, humane, pre-vocational' one. As such, it will mostly be general knowledge and preparation for a range of higher learning and/or technical specialisations. I simply don't see Will or Per as being relevant for many of either and nor do I see the harsh training that would realistically raise Will as 'liberal or humane' education.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

I'd vote for raising the IQ. However, while this type of education might enhance general knowledge, analytical and perception, I don't see that it would lead to giant wills (although it wouldn't weaken wills either). I could see a kid with and IQ of 15 except his will is 13, as a typical graduate of this system. Sure he/she would be listed as having a weak-will disadvantage, but their will would still be stronger than an IQ 10 person with two levels of strong will.

Are you proposing IQ 15 as a standard for the system, or is that just for illustrative purposes?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Computer operation is an obsolete skill by TL 10. Computers capable of intelligently parsing language make it pointless.

Computer Operation/TL10 is the skill of making the LAI tutor believe it is the one in charge of subtly adjusting the education schedule. :)

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I simply don't see Will or Per as being relevant for many of either and nor do I see the harsh training that would realistically raise Will as 'liberal or humane' education.

Will is relevant for mundane things as well as adventuring ones; resisting procrastination, etc would fall under Will.

Whether you can do it in as part of curriculum parents would be willing to inflict on their children is another question, as is whether it's worth the time. It's certainly not going to be like TL8 special ops training, but you've got a long time to do it. Can a failure to receive proper "normal" education/upbringing result is Weak Will even for IQ 10? If the answer is yes, presumably improvements to education technology can improve Will somewhat without resorting to harsh methods.

[RyanW]

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I can't quit thinking along these lines:

Phobia (Lack of AI guidance)
Confused (Mitigator: AI advice)
Delusion (An AI will always be there to prevent any serious danger)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by gjc8

Will is relevant for mundane things as well as adventuring ones; resisting procrastination, etc would fall under Will.

Yes.

But in a system where most of the products of your education will use it to lead intereseting lives while they work part-time or not at all (i.e. the average TL10 society), why would you care if they procrastinate?

The innate* drive and discipline of the kids would seperate the ones who apply themselves and ended up with a long list of skills and a higher overall IQ, as well as a ticket to a higher education preparing them for a prestigious career, and those who ended up with mostly defaults, a few Dabbler Perks and a burgeoning career as a welfare recipient.

Remember, if your education system aims to turn all your students into extremely motivated people with a desire to work hard, but you have an economy where the demand for low-skill labour, even people with motivations but no skills higher those of relatively cheap (and infinitely patient) NAIs and LAIs, is so low that most of them will not be able to find jobs other than possibly make-work, you are going to reap a harvest of discontent, unrest and general unhappiness.

Let nature serve to seperate the recipients from the contributors.

*Well, innate or that instilled by socialisation with parents, peers and other sapient figures in the student's life.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by gjc8

Can a failure to receive proper "normal" education/upbringing result is Weak Will even for IQ 10? If the answer is yes, presumably improvements to education technology can improve Will somewhat without resorting to harsh methods.

In my opinion, no.

A failure to receive a normal upbringing and education will mean a lower IQ, including a lower Will if stimuli which would develop that is also lacking.

On the other hand, a lot of the ways that a person could fail to receive a proper education can mean a lower IQ, but Will and Per of his normal 'innate' level. This would apply for those who have to fend for themselves from a very young age and mostly succeeded, instead of ending up as broken human beings.* Such people are very good at those skills their particular situation has required, but they lack the kind of academic broad-mindedness and skills at learning and critical thinking that would allow them to quickly pick up new skills and be good at defaults.

*Who would have low everything and a range of Disadvantage, regardless of their theoretical potential if they had not suffered deprivation, want and perhaps active cruelty.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

They can also work early rather then(or as well as) matriculate early. A youth is fit for work far earlier then the present arrangement of the educational system allows. They can also marry earlier; more can marry in their twenties.

Sure, and it would be a very good thing for most of them if they did. School is psycho-socially unsuitable for most late teenagers: they ought to be in the community and the workplace establishing relationships with adults, exposed to a variety of adult role-models other than the teacher-in-authority and that have not be concocted by soap-opera librettists, and doing work that gives a real sense of accomplishment and reward. In my state they have just passed a law that would have forced me to stay at school another year after I matriculated (and which would have kept my maternal grandfather in school for seven years after he matriculated!), and I would have hated that. Moreover I suspect that I agree with you that youngsters who take up apprenticeships at 15 seem to be a lot happier and more mature at 18 than their contemporaries who have stayed at school.

However, the setting I am considering this for is not a utopia. It is by design thoroughly screwed up and horrible, and in this particular the kids, the psychological engineers who run the schools, and the education regulators are under statutory restraint.

College level courses can be studied while in the process of work if widespread computer usage is available.

Yes indeed! That's why this bit of the setting is able to, and relies to a great extent upon, giving people formal training only in the elements and fundamentals of their professions, and then sending them out on extended internships to learn in the workplace.